iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Best time to cut Douglas fir

Started by sawbuckacres, December 12, 2009, 05:30:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sawbuckacres

Been poking around various threads looking for info on the best time to tip over Douglas fir.  I want to rough mill them next summer into boards and beams for air drying, and am of the understanding that they should be cut during winter months when the sap has dropped into the roots, thereby decreasing drying time.  Not sure if this is a truth or a rural legend.  Is is in fact true that this occurs?

WDH

I believe that it is a rural legend.  The moisture content inside the tree does not vary considerably over the seasons.  It is best to cut the trees just before milling them. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

You'll also find that interior Doug. Fir does not require all that long to dry. Only 2 lbs/ft3 are liberated from green to 12% MC, compared to western hemlock which loses 10 lbs/ft3. Water is 62.4 lb/ft3 for gauging (@ 40-70 degrees).
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sawbuckacres

All right then.  I appreciate the insight.  Up to now, I have been milling the logs and letting them air dry for about 6 weeks, which has reduced the moisture to around 16-18%.  Additional time doesn't seem to decrease it much more so maybe I'll just wait till spring to cut the trees, then rough saw them and stack them to dry.

Thank you very much for your help.

golden foot

Sorry,
You might want to keep your snow packs handy. When I am selling Doug Fir house logs I can get more money for them from the best builder around. The deal is the sap wood. When the sap stops running in Jan. that is when you want to cut them if you are doing your own custom stuff like we are. Every little bit helps don't you know.
SOLO 103CC SAW PRENTICE 410 LOADER CHRISTY YARDER,EAGLET Motorized CARRIAGE TIMBERJACK AND NEW HOLLAND SKIDDERS JOHN DEERE 550 DOZER LUCAS 830 MILL BIGGEST TREE FELL: 80,000 BOARD FEET WM LT40 Manual

stumphugger

The thing to consider about cutting them when the sap is up, will you have other DFs or conifers left standing?  If you hit a leave tree during the sap running time, it'll skin up a lot more. This means scarring of your standing trees and less value in the future for them.  That is what you need to watch out for. 

sawbuckacres

 :-\  Alright, now I'm confused again.  Stump hugger and Golden foot are talking about the "sap running."  I guess I need a primer on conifer physiology.  WDH said that moisture content doesn't change seasonally.  I assume he is referring specifically to water - both intra and intercellular.  When we're talking about "sap," this appears to be a different story.  Sap is apparently moving through the tree at different rates by season, which suggests an optimal time for felling??  Dumb question, but where is the sap going? 

I guess I thought that conifers didn't go through the same level of dormancy as do deciduous trees, but apparently that is not the case.

Another related issue here is that I will be trying to avoid both sap and heart wood when I am cutting beams, as I understand I will experience less movement of the wood as it dries if I do so. 

woodtroll

House logs around here are cut during the winter. Less sap - less dirt sticks to the log. Rural legend? I don't know, the buyer will only buy in the winter.

sawbuckacres

Okay, but what I'm most concerned about is how winter versus summer felling influences the end product.  If I cut and mill the trees in the spring, will I be experiencing different drying, shrinking, or twisting than if I cut them in the winter and mill them later in the year?  Is there a difference in the characteristics of wood that is felled in the winter, than in the summer?

beenthere

Listen to what WDH says. He is right.  8)

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

beenthere

Quote from: sawbuckacres on December 15, 2009, 01:39:20 PM
Okay, but what I'm most concerned about is how winter versus summer felling influences the end product.  If I cut and mill the trees in the spring, will I be experiencing different drying, shrinking, or twisting than if I cut them in the winter and mill them later in the year?  Is there a difference in the characteristics of wood that is felled in the winter, than in the summer?
No difference that can be measured.  When the wood dries it will shrink. If the grain is twisted, then the piece of wood will twist when it dries.
There will be a difference from exposure to warmer air in the Spring, so stain from bacteria and fungi growing can be a force to consider.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sawbuckacres

It will be a lot easier for me to fall trees in the spring/summer than in winter.  Winter access is very poor and snow will be deep. 

Thank you very much for taking the time to help  ;D

SwampDonkey

As WDH and beenthere said, there is little variation in seasonal moisture. Although, we did have a contract stipulation for years with a pulp mill called "seasonal moisture adjustment". It amounted to $3-4 a tonne extra in the winter months. No it wasn't a snow bonus. Although, it amounts to the exact same thing in the end, your pay cheque. :D Just a little something extra the mills do to get wood delivered. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sawbuckacres

I guess it would depend on which direction they adjust it.

Thanks for you help  ;D

stumphugger

Conifers  do go dormant during the winter.  They break bud in the Spring and that is when the sap starts running, or growth starts.   It varies but in the elevations I work in, it runs anywhere from May through August.  Then the tree hardens up.  You can get away with rubbing a turn against a leave tree in December, but not in June.  The bark sloughs off easily during sap time.  That's what we call it...sap season.  Which might just be only a local term, but that's what we call it.  

If you are clearcutting, it makes no difference.  In partial cuts, the logging crews have to be much more careful during that time.  
Loggers have claimed that there is a weight difference, I don't know for sure.  The mills don't care what season the trees are cut in.
But the landowner might.  


WDH

In most cases, when the "sap is running" or the "sap is up", that means that the tree has broken dormancy and water is being pulled from the soil by the roots as a result of transpiration/evaporation of water in the crown.  This does not change the inherent moisture content in the wood, it just means that the tree is actively moving water from the roots to the leaves/needles/crown and sugars from the crown through the inner bark to feed the roots.

As the tree begins the new growth, the cambuim turns on and starts laying down new wood.  This early activity of the cambium as it is actively dividing causes the inner bark at the cambuim and wood interface to adhere less tightly since the cambium is dividing, putting new inner bark on the outside and new wood on the inside.  This makes it easy for the bark to "slip" and be easy to remove or damage from any kind of mechanical contact.  This is the best time to "peel" wood to remove the bark, and it is the best time to damage a tree from contact with the bark. 

In the conifers, the tree produces resin to protect itself from insects and other physical damage.  This resin is produced in the wood thru specialized cells that are associated with the rays.  Pines, for one, have well developed resin canals that form radially in the wood like rays that conduct the resin to the outer layers of the tree to gum up the works if there is an insect invasion or a wound.  This is also called "sap".  In hardwoods, like the maple family, sugars transported in the inner bark are recovered by tapping the tree to let the "sap" ooze out for our use in making syrup. 

So, there are several things that are called "sap".   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

sawbuckacres

This is all really interesting, and helpful.  Thank you all.  Here's my take-home thus far.

1.  As I will be select cutting, I need to be careful about when and how I cut to avoid damaging neighboring trees.

2.  Moisture, at least relative to water content, is not a seasonal issue as the moisture content doesn't really vary throughout the year.  "Water movement" is simply more active during the spring growth period.

3.  Then there is the "true sap," aka resin, that is moving radially.  WDH, you didn't say so specifically, but I assume from your comments that this radial movement is most active during summer when insect (or maybe bird) attacks are most likely.  Am I correct in also assuming that this resin is always present throughout the wood, which, as with water moisture, doesn't really affect the milling or drying character of the wood, regardless of when it is harvested.

Just as a side note, I had a large (~30" dbh) engelmann spruce blow over early last summer.  I thought it might make some nice cabinet lumber so I bucked it into 8' sections for the mill.  I was amazed at the quantity of resin that accumulated on my saw. Nothing like I've ever seen  :o with any other conifers.


SwampDonkey

Quote from: sawbuckacres on December 16, 2009, 12:14:30 AM
Then there is the "true sap," aka resin, that is moving radially.  WDH, you didn't say so specifically, but I assume from your comments that this radial movement is most active during summer when insect (or maybe bird) attacks are most likely.  Am I correct in also assuming that this resin is always present throughout the wood, which, as with water moisture, doesn't really affect the milling or drying character of the wood, regardless of when it is harvested.

If the resin isn't "set", by drying at a temperature at least as warm as where it will be used in service, then you can get bleeding of resin like any conifer with resin canals.

Resin canals are much like cells in rays (specialized parenchyma cells called epithelial which are excreting cells) and can be seen by hand lens on the surface of flat sawn lumber, not as distinct as white pine which can be seen unmagnified. They remain functional only in the living part of the sapwood. That is why you see a ring of pitch oozed in the sapwood of a log, a response to injury. Resin is not sap, it's manufactured and secreted by the epithelial cells making up the resin canals in the sapwood. Sap is transported down the inner bark of a tree, consisting of water carrying products made during photosynthesis like sucrose to feed the live cells. Water is the means to transport it. Resin is not very soluble in water, try washing it off. :D Amber of course, is fossilized resin.


Become a tree licker :D , and lick a fresh scraped tree where the bark was scraped off in the active growing season. It tastes sugary. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Rocky_Ranger

Tree Licker?  I've been called many things in my life but never a "tree licker" - cool thought though, I've licked many a xs pieces of cut wood for wood tech identification.  I always considered them Georgia boys tree lickers anyway  :D.   Funny how as Doug fir ages the resin canals fade into the older bark, can still be found in the thin bark up on the limbs and upper reaches of the tree.
RETIRED!

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on December 16, 2009, 08:57:37 AM
I always considered them Georgia boys tree lickers anyway  :D.   

I know there is at least one in Alabama, self professed to. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sawbuckacres

I am a wildlife biologist by trade.  Spent most of my career smelling wolverine's butts  :-X- might as well go out a tree licker.

I mentioned earlier that I have read that one should try to avoid sapwood and heartwood in the milling - if one has the luxury to be so selective - as beams and boards that contain neither are subject to less twisting.  The literature seemed to suggest this was due to the resin itself, but after reading all your posts, I'm not sure if that's the case.  May be just a function of grain and tension variation throughout the log.  My stand of Doug fir is about 110 years old.  The sapwood generally extends about 2" into a 20" log.

beenthere

QuoteI have read that one should try to avoid sapwood and heartwood in the milling

The log is sapwood surrounding the heartwood. All the wood in the log is either sapwood or heartwood.
Don't think you can avoid them both.

(and I'm not gonna ask about the wolverine butts... ::) ::) ::)  )
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sawbuckacres

Man!  You guys are debunking everything I thought I ever knew about trees.  :-\ I guess that's why I'm on here.

Some of the timberframeing folks suggest that the ideal wood, relative to strength, lack of warping, and lack of rotting, occurs in that portion of the tree, away from the core and away from the sapwood.  They suggest that if you cut a tree and watch the cut for a few days, you will notice a "ring" of exterior wood from which the sap will extrude.  In old growth, this ring may be only a few centimeters thick, while in second or third generation, it may constitude as much as half or more of the wood.  They contend that it is this sapwood that tends to decompose rapidly and suggest that a post cut from a typical pine, or Doug fir, that contains none of this sapwood will be very rot resistant - one could plant such a Doug fir post and expect it to persist for 50 years, simply by avoiding this sapwood. 

I have watched the end cuts of my logs and have noticed this - that there is a ring of about 2 inches that exudes a fairly high degree of resin, while the remaining 8 or 10 inches exudes none.

And as far as the wolverine butts thing, I've been doing chemical analysis on wolverine anal musk in an attempt to develop a lure for noninvasive sampling of wolverine populations.  Somebody's got to do it.

Ianab

You are correct about sapwood being less durable. It's the 'living' part of the tree where water and nutrients are transported around. After a few years it gets changed to heartwood and the tree lays down chemical extractives in the structure. These make it less desirable for bugs to eat, and more resistant to rot and fungus. I dont know about Doug Fir lasting 50 years in the ground, but the heart wood will last MUCH longer than sapwood.

The stability of the wood around the pith is also an issue. The wood there is juvenile wood, laid down when the tree was just a sapling, and the small growth rings are unstable as it dries. It's almost certain to star check around the pith and generally mis-behave.

So yes your best boards and beams will be the ones that are cut 'Free Of Heart', and without sapwood will be more durable. The other option is "Heart Centered" when the pith is kept in the middle of the beam. That way the wood on each side is balanced and hopefully keeps things straight. Thats the best option if the logs are smaller compared to the beam size.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Sapwood is xylem, the conducting tissues, this conducting tissue includes heartwood. But, heartwood becomes less efficient toward the pith of the tree as tracheads, pores and such get clogged with extractives and other deposits. Now the inner bark is phloem tissue, bringing food down the tree. How does food get into the live sapwood you say? Wood rays and other parachyma cells do this. They have to be living cells, they also store excess carbohydrates until needed. Tree species more efficient in utilizing carbohydrates have a wider sapwood and those trees more dominant in the canopy have a wider sapwood as well.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sawbuckacres

Interesting !  So, the thickness of the sap layer is mostly a function of the tree's health, than of age, as I have been told.  You know how difficult it can be to find store-bought lumber that will remain straight if it is stored long - I always thought that was because much of today's commercial lumber was cut from young trees that were primarily sapwood.

I'll have to do some experimentation this summer when I fire up the mill.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: sawbuckacres on December 16, 2009, 05:53:01 PM
So, the thickness of the sap layer is mostly a function of the tree's health, than of age.

Age and health aren't exclusive, at least not over the long haul. Tree diameter, on the other hand, does not correlate well to it's age. Although, I must say that a 40 inch sugar maple up here, is very old. But, a 40 inch maple could be the same age as an 18" one. You can cut a large maple with less than 1/3rd heart, the next one similar in size could be 2/3rds. Heart in sugar maple is not desirable. Yellow birch on the other hand, makes no difference to veneer buyers, it's more stable. Generally, as a tree ages you would expect a greater proportion of heart wood in relation to sapwood. The system becomes less efficient over time like anything that grows old. ;)  Some tree species are just not as efficient in using carbohydrates as others. It's as much genetics as it is health. Take butternut, the sapwood is only as much as an inch wide. It is not a long lived tree, similar to aspen. Maybe 80 -90 years or so.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Rocky, I am not insulted as I have licked some wood for wood ID purposes.  Us Georgia boys have a few other talents as well, but since this is not the "Restricted Board" I will refrain from other comment  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

QuoteThe system becomes less efficient over time like anything that grows old. 
ouch!! That hurt.  :D :D :D

SwampDonkey

Didn't plan it to.   :(   :-\


:D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DouginUtah


It is usually a distinct transition from sapwood to heartwood. We see this as a distinct change of color. What is the reason for the very different coloring and why is it so abrupt?

-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

SwampDonkey

There is sometimes an intermediate zone between sap and heart. But the intermediate zone, still containing live cells, takes on the color of the heart. The coloring is caused by deposits of extractives, extraneous materials, and infiltrations. And in hardwood, accelerated tyloses formation in the pores. In pine, hemlock, spruce and aspen there is no easily distinguished heart/sap line, yet there is heartwood, because the wood is dead there. Stored substances like carbohydrates in parenchyma cells, located deeper in the sapwood, may exceed the tree's requirements. The substances become polymerized with residual oxygen in the parenchyma cells. Those cells lose efficiency, there is less oxygen, they form extractives. The extractives become lethal to the surrounding cells, respiration ceases, then they die. So, dead heart wood is a barrier to anything coming in from live parenchyma. Basically, stuff accumulates at the heart wood boundary and becomes lethal to living cells. They then become new dead heartwood. Parenchyma are usually at a boundary layer in a growth increment.

Don't ask me around a camp fire about this stuff, it's not from memory. You know the "saying, use it or lose it". :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Rocky_Ranger

WDH, I wuz just a messin' with ya  ;D, I really expected to get clobbered by some good natured ribbing........
RETIRED!

DouginUtah

-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Ianab

Quote from: sawbuckacres on December 16, 2009, 05:53:01 PM
Interesting !  So, the thickness of the sap layer is mostly a function of the tree's health, than of age, as I have been told.  You know how difficult it can be to find store-bought lumber that will remain straight if it is stored long - I always thought that was because much of today's commercial lumber was cut from young trees that were primarily sapwood.

I'll have to do some experimentation this summer when I fire up the mill.

The width of the sapwood gives you an indication of how fast the tree was growing. The sapwood will generally be the same number of annual growth rings. Exact amount depends on the species, but say it's 10 years. If the tree is only growing 1/10th" per year then the sapwood is about 1". If it's growing 1/2" per year, then you have about 5" of sapwood.

An old tree growing in an established canopy will have the slow growth, while a youing vigorous open growing tree will be growing fast.

The unstable timber cut from small logs is true. But it's not the sapwood, it's the juvenile wood from near the heart. With a small log every board will from near the heart, but wont have the heart centred, so it's likely to be unstable.

Our local pine trees are harvested on about a 25 year cycle and dont get old enough to form heartwood at all, it's basically all sapwood. But the logs are up in the 24-36" range and you can saw nice stable timber from them, and chemical treatment covers the durability issues.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sawbuckacres

Great stuff ! Thank you all so much.

;D ;D ;D

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ianab on December 16, 2009, 10:56:47 PM
The sapwood will generally be the same number of annual growth rings. Exact amount depends on the species, but say it's 10 years.

I don't quite agree there, since it's been shown that sapwood ring counts can be from 10-30 rings difference in many species. There are some species however it may correlate better with that have under 5 rings of sapwood, like black locust. Sugar maple and beech aren't a wide variance, maybe 10 rings difference on average. Ours grow slow here, so them rings are mighty tight unless your growing a yard tree, even then a beech seems slow to grow compared to a maple.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ianab

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 18, 2009, 02:51:44 AM
Quote from: Ianab on December 16, 2009, 10:56:47 PM
The sapwood will generally be the same number of annual growth rings. Exact amount depends on the species, but say it's 10 years.

I don't quite agree there, since it's been shown that sapwood ring counts can be from 10-30 rings difference in many species. There are some species however it may correlate better with that have under 5 rings of sapwood, like black locust. Sugar maple and beech aren't a wide variance, maybe 10 rings difference on average. Ours grow slow here, so them rings are mighty tight unless your growing a yard tree, even then a beech seems slow to grow compared to a maple.

Yes, you are probably correct. I would guess there is also a correlation between age of the tree and the number of sapwood growth rings?

Seems that a 20? year old tree that is just starting to form heartwood would have 19 rings of sapwood, where an older mature tree might be down to 10 or less, so it's not exatly related to years of growth. Probably all sorts of enviromental things come into it as well.

But you can still judge how vigourus the trees growth was by the width of the sapwood.

Just an example of one of our big cypress logs. The heart/sap is very defined and about 8 years growth. (2-3")


Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Thusly, tree health and vigour. I can half except age, but knowing it's tied to health. Although, health and vigour are the underlying factors some species no matter how healthy they are, are not efficient users of carbohydrates. Too much produced, that is stored and unused and becomes lethal to the parenchyma cell after being polymerized also killing adjacent cells.

"But you can still judge how vigourus the trees growth was by the width of the sapwood."

Ring width of the sapwood in inherently narrow sapwood species, since the number of rings don't vary by more than a couple rings. Ring width, along with sapwood/heartwood ratio in wide sapwood species with many rings. Like I explained about sugar maple heartwood being a large percentage in some trees and others it's tiny around the juvenile wood. But what looks like sapwood can also be heart not yet oxidized in some species or may never change dark at all. They classify them into 4 groups of sapwood: 1) sapwood trees - alders unless over mature, 2) ripewood - fir, pine, spruce (no pigmentation in the heart), 3) regular heartwood - oak, walnut, cherry, 4) irregular heartwood- ash (parenchyma cells only are pigmented, surrounding ones aren't). 

Ring width is real narrow on sugar maple forest grown in my area. Takes 50 years at least to get to 8" unless a yard tree. I have two 80 year old yard trees over 25" each. I have a 25 year old yard beech that is not quite 4", disease free. It's probably closer to 30, since I transplanted it as a 14 inch seedling. All growing in soil like a good garden. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ianab

Definately different for different species.

Not all trees in NZ grow like weeds. I was down the back garden today checking on my trees. The Rimu that I planted when I moved in, a bit over 5 years ago is now about 6ft tall, and maybe 1" dia at the base. Thats pretty good growth. Give it 100 years and it might make 100ft, by 400 years it should be worth milling.

The Miro beside it is growing slower.... ::)

Not to be discouraged, we went up the road to a native tree nursery and bought a Totara, Kahikatea and a Kowhai as well.

It's a LONG TERM project  ;D

Good news is that we are starting to see some more native birds around the street, mostly hanging out in the introduced ornamentals (Banksia and cherry), but it's a start.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

tughill

I was thinking that to avoid both heartwood and sapwood, he was going to glue a bunch of bark together to make beams. ;D

It is definitely better to fell and saw lumber in the winter.  Traditional logging and sawmilling was always done in winter, for good reasons:

Logs stay cleaner being skidded on snow, which cuts down on saw maintenance.
Less damage to soil, as it is frozen, less mud, erosion etc.
Lumber will not mold.
Softwoods will not bleed pitch all over the place, on tools equipment, on your hands and clothes.
And contrary to popular belief, lumber that is properly stacked and sticked will dry in winter no matter how cold, although probably a bit slower, which is a good thing for internal tension/warpage considerations.

I'm sure there are others, but if I had a choice, I would log and saw in the winter.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not."- Thomas Jefferson
Local Farmer here won 10$ million in the lottery, when asked what he was going to do with his winnings, responded, "Keep on farming until that's all gone too."

golden foot

 All the science is interesting. There is a lot to learn. Just from a practical standpoint I prefer "bug killed" Douglas Fir for my mill. It just seems to make better lumber. The moisture content of the logs averages around 20%. The lumber doesn't warp or shrink as much. The flitches weigh less and burn easier. The lumber air dries faster and has a beautiful color. Another way to do it is deck the logs for one to two seasons depending on your climate, then mill the logs. I am lucky where I live because it is low humidity in the summer and frozen in the winter so not much deterioration or stain in the logs. You could even "cross stack" the logs to get them to dry out and not get slimy.
SOLO 103CC SAW PRENTICE 410 LOADER CHRISTY YARDER,EAGLET Motorized CARRIAGE TIMBERJACK AND NEW HOLLAND SKIDDERS JOHN DEERE 550 DOZER LUCAS 830 MILL BIGGEST TREE FELL: 80,000 BOARD FEET WM LT40 Manual

MWnBC

    Hi.
    One quick question.
    Why are sugar maples tapped in the winter ,when they are dormant ?

    Mark

beenthere

How about in the spring, when the sap begins to flow.   :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

stonebroke

You have to get every thing inplace before the sap flows or you will miss out on the early runs.

Stonebroke

oscar not the grouch

Quote from Beenthere on Dec 15th, 2009
"When the wood dries it will shrink. If the grain is twisted, then the piece of wood will twist when it dries. "

Hi there,
Very interesting subject. I have just recently cut 80 Tamarack trees (eastern larch) this past November 2009 which I intend to log out this coming Spring and have it milled as framing lumber for my future camp. I may have some milled to use as flooring boards as well, I've seen some and they are very nice looking...nice grain.

Speaking of grain, I have read in John Laird Farrar's book "Trees in Canada" including northern US, that tamarack has a "spiral grain". Now does this mean that I will end up with a whole bunch of twisted 2x after it has air dried?? Would it be better if I had it kiln dried??

WDH

I am not familiar with tamarack, but in air drying the spiral grain hardwoods like sweetgum, blackgum, hackberry, elm, and sycamore, you can expect some twist and warp, but by no means will all the boards be that way.  Enough will to get your attention, though  :)

I think that kiln drying would help as the drying conditions are more controlled than with air drying, and there should be less degrade.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ianab

Sawn boards warp as they dry because for some reason they shrink unevenly. Maybe because they have reaction wood (from a leaning tree), large knots, internal stress etc. If the tree has grown in a spiral then it's going to have grain going in different ways along the length of the board, so that is likely to be unstable too.

Kilning or air drying doesn't change it in any big way. Best way to keep it straight is to hold the whole drying stack down so it cant move. If you can hold it straight until it dries it will generally stay that way when you unstack it.

Lots of weight on the stack, or some big cargo straps that you can tighten up each week to keep the pressure on it.

Some boards are allways going to misbehave, but you can squash most of them into submission.

Some tree species are more prone to spiral grain than others, Thats probably what you read about. Not all trees will exhibit it, and it will be to different degrees. You can generally pick it by looking at the bark.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

golden foot

It seems like there is still some unansered questions about this post: one is still why do log home builders using Doug Fir demand that the trees be cut in the winter? I am thinking that there must be a lower moisture content in the sap wood even though it has been established that all of the moisture doesn't go back down to the roots and hibernate like a bear. If you think about it, in the fall months when the days get shorter, the temps. get lower, the photosynthesis process slows along with the growth rate. If you think about rubbing the bark off a tree when you are skidding logs in the spring versus tighter bark in the fall. It just makes sense that there is less available moisture in the tree during the fall and winter months. When the tree is frozen there is obviously no "growth" going on. Any other thoughts on this? Also to consider where Sawbuckacres lives gets a ton of snow. So there is a tradeoff in the practicality of harvesting in the winter.
SOLO 103CC SAW PRENTICE 410 LOADER CHRISTY YARDER,EAGLET Motorized CARRIAGE TIMBERJACK AND NEW HOLLAND SKIDDERS JOHN DEERE 550 DOZER LUCAS 830 MILL BIGGEST TREE FELL: 80,000 BOARD FEET WM LT40 Manual

logwalker

Doug Fir is most definitely lighter when cut in the dead of winter. The tree has gone dormant and pulled a lot of the moisture back to the roots. And the humidity in winter is less also and that has a direct effect. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Thank You Sponsors!