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Biomass boilers (more coming)

Started by Ironwood, December 11, 2009, 09:04:47 PM

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Ironwood

After reading several other threads, including "whole tree harvesting" I decided to start a thread about the iimpact of biomass boilers.

Locally, the tree services in the city (Pittsburgh) seem to really move alot of material to these operations. There is supposed to be another "going online" soon.

As a guy who wants and searches for Urban logs and sources of material, this seems to my biggest threat to my supply line. Most small tree ops cant justify the capital to make this work for their operations, but certainly the bigger ones can/ do. I need to research this a bit more, and go out and talk to the operations supplying the "tonnage" to the boilers. My "modus operandi" would be to train the owners, foreman to what I want and then get my wallet out to make it worth their while.

Anyone else seeing this? Just a thought, and I think worth discussing. 

A link to a company w/ their ear to the ground

http://www.risiinfo.com/risi-store/do/product/detail/wood-biomass-projects-database.html?gclid=CO6Bi7Huz54CFVw55QodUi_Nrw


            Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Gary_C

You have just seen the tip of the iceberg so far. Just wait till the government gets done opening their (your) wallet on the biomass program. There are already some large loggers buying up potential biomass jobs to get paid twice for that biomass.

You are really going to have to open up your wallet to compete with your own tax dollars.  ::)

Biomass Crop Assistance Program for FSA

I doubt it will be on the same scale as the "black liquor" handout as they have a limited amount of money allocated, but it sure will distort the markets for a while.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Kansas

I was in a meeting last week where we heard from a guy explaining their biomass operation in western kansas. Originally, they were going to use farm biomass to make pellets; that didn't work. Then they switched to pallet recycling waste. They don't have enough of that so they are importing blue stain pine from Colorado and Wyoming. The government matches dollar for dollar the cost of the material, so basically the government is paying for the trucking into their location. I know they are struggling to get this off the ground, but how in the world do you justify taxpayer dollars to truck material at least 300 miles. It does sound like that program might end before too long.

I don't mind some seed money from the government to help get these things started, but eventually they have to stand on their own. The one question I wonder, and have not been able to find out, is what is the economics of taking green logs, landfill trees, etc, and turning it into BTU's. That is, what can be realistically paid for green wood. It worries me that clear cutting could be a possibility, expecially if the government matches dollar for dollar the cost of the raw material.

Hilltop366

It does makes you wonder how many btu's and non renewable fuels are used up getting the biomass cut hauled processed compared to what you get out of the biomass?

Ironwood

Yup, that WILL distort the market for awhile. Thanks for the link.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

SwampDonkey

Why does the hauling have to be 300 miles, 500 miles? Is it because the state supplying the wood has tighter regulations? Why bother setting up shop if you have to haul so far? Seems like a business plan is lacking. If there is a subsidy it should go into a plan to determine the feasibility, then equipment. If your in an area that harvesting is very limited it's time to move your operations to a more active market. Something like that should also be targeted in areas with a lot of low grade or under utilized species, but on above average growing sites. I see it using wood from well managed woods to improve quality. Chances are it will encourage clearcuts because that's where the quick dollars come from and far fewer entries. However, improvement cuts would reach far more forest stands and larger acreages if there are a lot of participants, instead of just mowing trees down on smaller acreages. Is it going to be competitive? So far it seems so up here. Boralex in Fort Fairfield had it's contract renewed by the State of Maine. Most chips to that plant are imported from NB. Boralex is a Quebec company.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

red oaks lumber

the talk around here is clearcut the properties, chip it all for the mills.(electric,pellet,paper) the reasoning more dollars per acre. boy if this method takes ahold hell, i'll be able to "see russia from my house"
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Ironwood

Boy howdy, that sure seems it would encourage clearcutting. Big capital, BIG cutting.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

SwampDonkey

Clearcutting is nothing new. I can say that most of the Boralex biomass is from clearcuts. But, most areas there are size limits, adjacency to uncut stands, and "establishment to free growing" condition, followed up by spacing. Clearcutting and standing back and doing nothing decreases future stem size at the end of the rotation, grows weak stemmed trees, does not allow selection of more desired and better quality trees for future crop trees. If you don't reinvest in the forest after a clearcut than "law of diminishing returns". Sometimes a clearcut is the best alternative if you've got a lot of low grade wood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

The hope is that these consumers of biomass will create a market for the low grade and the cull left over from years of select cutting and poor forest management. 

The price will be low, generally expected to be about the same price as pulpwood or less, so the focus on growing quality sawtimber will still be there.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Cedarman

Someone logged the tree in western Kansas a few years ago and now there are no more. ;D
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Ironwood

Yeah, there are a bunch in Eastern Kansas, I was stationed at Ft. Riley for a while.  ;)

     Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Kansas

Cedarman, I did ask the guy why they weren't utilizing the eastern red cedar or the salt cedar out there. His reply was that in order to make pellets, everything has to be debarked. Something about ash content and getting it through the pelleter.
I don't imagine trying to debark a bunch of pasture cedar would pan out too well.

And we have some nice timber out in western Kansas. We hide them in the mountains out there.

Ironwood

Actually Eastern Kansas, the trees are hidden in the valleys out of the wind. And,..... a,.... are there mountains in western Kansas? I musta missed that part of the drive.  ::)

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

stonebroke

Quote from: Ironwood on December 12, 2009, 10:18:58 PM
Actually Eastern Kansas, the trees are hidden in the valleys out of the wind. And,..... a,.... are there mountains in western Kansas? I musta missed that part of the drive.  ::)

Ironwood
The mountains of western kansas must be all of what 20 or30 feet high. It all in your perspective when everything else is pooltable flat a little hill seems like a mountain.

Stonebroke

Ironwood

I was actually stationed at Ft. Riley for a spell. I had alot of time recreating in that area (and driving to Colorado to climb).

     Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Kansas

We don't tell people about our mountains so we can keep them to ourselves, keep the tourists from showing up. And we sure do a good job of that. Trying to find a tourist in Kansas is like trying to find a sympathetic IRS agent.

Ironwood

I actually found the sweeping views and vastness of Kansas quite beautiful. I especially like the bluffs and pairie views off I-70. I duck and goose hunted ALOT on the Corps many damns/ resevoirs. Also, almost sunk a pontoon boat on on one of them  :o Dont ask, lets just say the wind BLOWS fast and 20 HP aint enough to outrun whitecaps  :o

   Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Cedarman

The chalk cliffs south of Oakley are really neat.  The Fick museum with the sod house and other homesteader things is neat too.

Bliss tried ERC in his pellet machines and it worked fine except it burned too hot.  They mixed it with oak and it worked perfect.  Bark content of cedar is not that large.  Trees that are dead 2 years usually lose a lot of bark in the mulching process.  Also cedar trees that dry with their limbs on dry down to a low moisture content .  You can haul more dry matter per truck load and drying costs are much reduced.  I think it is only a matter of time before more ERC is used in pellet making.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

Yeah, ERC has a lot less moisture than other species when even green. The information on moisture content of different species just has to be taken advantage of. The average moister content green and @ 12 % has been published for years. Doug. Fir is another one, which is almost as dry as your gonna get right off the stump. Might loose a couple pounds per cubic foot, that's it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kansas

It seems to me the best way to use ERC and wood waste from municipal dumps, cull logs, pallet recyclers, etc. would be to have smaller biofuel generating facilities that would use the wood source from a smaller radius, say 40 miles or so. An operation that wouldn't require the wood to be pelleted, just ground. The Frito-Lay potato chip plant in Kansas is planning on doing that.They are already starting to stockpile wood waste from the city of Topeka. As mentioned earlier, the downside is that those logs won't be available for cutting into lumber. I recently received a call from a guy that cuts lumber from logs he gets there, and he is worried about log supply.
I keep getting calls from engineering firms out of Kansas City doing feasibility studies on putting in biofuel plants for companies around there, looking for fuel sources. I'm about 90 miles from KC. That seems like its just too far to make work.

The company I referred to actually ships some of their pellets to Europe. I guess those people are already doing the carbon credit thing and they don't have wind or other sources to use as offsetting carbon credits.  I can't quite see the enviromental advantage of making pellets in western Kansas and shipping them to Europe to burn for fuel. Math must have changed since I was in school. They also are putting in equipment that will make a product that can be burned in lieu of coal at power plants.

Cedarman

If you can get your material on a barge or in a shipping container on a ship, then shipping costs are relativley small.  A lot of pellets made in the US is heading east.

I agree, Kansas,  why pelletize if ground or chipped wood will work as fuel.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

TwinCut

I think you guys are right on the mark on this one. Moving this "Fuel" all over the country, never mind the world is crazy! It might make some weird sense now, but what happens when fuel prices go up again. The real trick to all of this is small and local. I think the 40 mile rule is about right. That means the power or heat generating plant needs to be small. What's wrong with that? When the day come that there is no more fuel for a small operation in a local area, move it. Try doing that with a $50 million outfit.

SwampDonkey

You guys forget that Europe is paying a lot more for fuel than in the US and more than Canada does to. I still can't figure the pricing out when we are shipping it out as fast as it can be refined. $US dollar be darned, should be a break in price if your net is to export what your producing. Supply and demand I thought was suppose to work. I know it's global market, but it sure ain't a fair trade.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

The transportation issues will certainly be factored in to the availability, but in the words of one marketing expert, there are a lot of facilities being planned right now with "unrealistic expectations" of what they will have to pay for biomass. Some of the earliest ones were getting free stuff but that has already ended. Now some around here are planning for $25 per ton delivered and that is just not going to work. That price leaves little or nothing for the landowner and barely enough for the processing and trucking. In fact most large loggers that have chippers have already refused to supply chips at that price but it is top secret what they have negotiated.

Would you like to buy a $100,000 chipper that drinks 40 gallons of fuel an hour to supply biomass at $25 per ton?

Perhaps you would if the FSA was kicking in $45 per ton but how long will that taxpayer funded marketing disruption last?

This is one reason that low grade timber sales are bringing so much right now. The big guys with chippers are stocking up for the government (taxpayer) gifts of up to $45 per ton additional over and above the pay price they have negotiated.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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