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i think i am trying to have one pulled over on me.

Started by semologger, December 09, 2009, 09:21:01 PM

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semologger

I have a guy hauling in pine post to me. He is useing a 85 model or so, 1 ton ford. It has a 9 foot bed or so. I have been buying his post by the piece. He says he can make more money by me paying by the ton. He has been hauling a few loads to another guy 30 miles further away from me. My question is his truck and load weighs 19300 pounds. His truck weighs 7,100 pounds. Making his load of wood 12,200 pounds. He had the ticket stamped. He weighed at a Feed store here in town. I still am having a hard time believing that a 1 ton truck is hauling 6 tons of wood. This is post 4 inch up to 8 inch and there was 114 pieces on the truck.

WH_Conley

I have a '91 Super Duty, usually haul 5 to 5 1/2 tons on it. Plenty of power for more, just don't want to replace tires and springs.
Bill

zopi

Figured 9 foot logs, averaged the 4-8 inch range..guesstimate avg 6 inch log, used log calculator for a spread of eastern white pine, and sugar pine..lighter vs heavier,
and got a range of weight from 7100lb load, to a 10000 lb load, add 7100 lbsfor his truck and you are not reaching that 19000 figure...if the logs are longer than the bed, makes a difference...if there are more 8" logs than 4" logs..makes a difference...both might make up that ton or so...
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semologger

Well that makes me feal a bit better. I am thinking of loading the load up on my trailer and half ton truck and weighing it at a certified cat scale. I might make the guy mad but i have to watch out for myself you know.

semologger

I ment to put on here that this is shortleaf pine. 6 inch and up are 8 foot even and 7 foot on smaller wood.

sprucebunny

Your numbers show that each post/pole should weigh around a hundred pounds. 114 poles and 12,200 pounds.
That should be easy to figure.
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semologger

If the forums tool box is right then these are the numbers it comes up with.

3x7 17.68 pounds
4x7 31.72 pounds
5x7 49.4   pounds
6x8 81.64 pounds
7x8 111.28 pounds
8x8 145.08 pounds
9x8 183.58 pounds

Pine weighs 9 pounds a board foot is what another site said.

DanG

So what method are you using currently, Semo?  If he wants to do it by weight, just have him weigh them and pay him whatever will come out the same.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
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Tom

If you pay him for weight, you have to weigh the truck twice.  Once loaded and once without the load.  His truck weight from the tag on his door, might be OK if his fuel tank(s) are empty and he gets himself and his tools out of the truck when it is weighed.  Do you know that he does that?

My truck has a empty weight of 10,300 lbs.  If I loaded it with 12000 lbs of wood and then weighed it, the ticket would be about 12,750 pounds

50 gallons of diesel=350 lbs give or take
tools in my truck weigh weigh about 100 lbs
I weigh 300 lbs.

the only way to get closer is to weigh the truck after unloading the wood and make sure that the static load remains the same.

SwampDonkey

Short leaf averages 52 lbs/ft3 green (Wood Handbook and Wood Tech book). One cunit is 100 ft3 of solid wood. A cunit is a cord less the bark and air space. I come up with 2.3 cords of wood based on that weight. Did you get anywhere near that volume of wood?

Quote from: semologger on December 09, 2009, 10:02:51 PM
Pine weighs 9 pounds a board foot is what another site said.

Couldn't be, no pine weighs that much. It's gotta be 1/12th of 52 lbs/ft3. Keep your foot off the scale. ;) :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

fishpharmer

Semo,  there maybe a reason he thinks he makes more money by the ton.  As DanG says, make it work out so its the same.  It might not be a bad idea to load your trailer and check behind the guy.  He doesn't necessarily need to know you are weighing the first load.  If you find inconsistency, intentional or not, it might pay to work out a different weighing system.  At the least, do what Tom says, get full and empty weights.  Give the guy the benefit of the doubt but ,can you afford not to know what your paying for?

As far as load capacity, I have an 85 F250 ford that regularly hauls 3 tons of feed.  Six tons on a one ton seems possible.  You won't know for sure until you check the weight.
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Meadows Miller

Gday

Semo
114 at an avverage o 6"x 7' long works out to about 4.22m3 x 425bft per m3 =1797bft divided by12= 149.75sqft  x 52lbs per sqft = 7787lbs per load

Overhere we work on roughly 1m3 (35.41sqft)=1 ton or (2240lbs) green weight

I think he's gettn keen putting that much weight on a 1 toner he'd be running outa space I reckon ;) but then your trucks are bigger overthere  ;) :D :D and He'll just end up rooting his ride  :o but then dad use to regularly  put 10 to 14 ton loads of posts on his F700 8ton truck with a 20' tray loaded sideways back in the 70s and 80s and  they where big loads 4'to5' high and the length of the tray  ;) You cold'nt get away with that overhere theses days its $5000  and 3 points of your ticket for each ton your over  :o :) ::) Ive heard of hungry blokes loosing their tickets in one load  :o :) ??? ::) ::)

Check the first couple of loads ind if it works out well for you both keep going with it if you want  ;) just remember that buying by the ton your paying for the bark aswell thatll add up over the year Mate  ;)

Regards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

semologger

The way i have been paying him is by the piece. I scale him out at the end of the peeler. I am giving him half of what i make. Say if its a 6 inch post i am giving $2.20 a piece I told him i am doing this i guess he just dont trust me ow well. I know i dont trust him at all. I am going to load it up and take it to a truck stop with certified scales to be sure.

WH_Conley

If I was already giving half and did not trust him I believe I would terminate the relationship. At least put it out on the table,"Here it is, discussion over, take it or leave it". Might want to use a bit more diplomacy than that.

If the other guy is paying him more he is not paying enough to cover the trucking or he wouldn't have been back. Personally it sounds like he is trying to price gouge a little bit. I don't mind someone trying to get a better deal, I just don't want to get the shaft in the process.
Bill

bull

pine weighs 5.3 lbs per BF.....  6 tons of log on 1 ton BS a little top heavy...... Soften up the shoulder on your driveway entrance, if he rolls over when he turns in his weight is Good, if he doesn't he's full of it....  Should be about 2265 Bfd of logs at 12,000 lbs....

Wonder if the DOT would be interested in seeing this truck on the road !!!

Cedarman

One board foot of cedar lumber weighs right at 3.1 # per board foot.  A 6" x 8' 4" cedar log scales at 11 feet on the cedar scale and will weight about 120# or right at 11# per board foot on the cedar log scale.  Pine is heavier.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

Makes sense if your stick is 8.5" at mid diameter. Short leaf would work out to 15.5 lbs/bf for a 6" stick, using same mid diameter. 3.27 ft3 in the stick according to the toolbox, so 170 lbs. Should still work out to around 2.3 cords (7 face cords 16" long) of wood if his weigh scale isn't fake. I mean it must be neatly stacked somewhere in the yard, just get the tape out and measure the pile. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_van

My '94 F 350 has 11000 GVW. I can't even imagine putting 6 ton  on it & driving down the road.  No way I want to be on one of those TV shows "Most Daring"   or in this case "Most Stupid" with  pics of my broke in half truck on primetime, maybe with a compact car under it 'cause I couldn't stop.
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

BaldBob

"Couldn't be, no pine weighs that much. It's gotta be 1/12th of 52 lbs/ft3. Keep your foot off the scale."

Swamp Donkey, If that comment was meant to be serious (I have a hard time interpreting smileys),You are not taking into account the way board feet and cubic feet are measured.  Cubic foot measurement takes into account the entire volume of the log - and in most cubic foot schemes uses both the large end and small end measurements.  Board foot measurements are only to determine the amount of usable lumber that can be sawn from  the log - it does not include slabs, edgings and saw kerf, and is generally only based on small end measurement. For instance highly tapered 16' green Ponderosa Pine logs often weigh 12 or more pounds per board foot (Scribner) while the green weight per cubic foot is around 45 pounds.

SwampDonkey

Yeah Bob. I came around in my last post. :D

The Forum Toolbox uses Huber's volume equation with mid diameters, and Doyle rule. I believe Newton's volume (bottom/mid/upper) would be closer, at least it was shown to be using water displacement.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mburrow

me I wouldn't change to buying by weight as it is not convenient.
the way you are buying is as good as any.
if you can get by with out his poles tell him you pay so much and can not change.
if you need his poles you may need to up your paying price but I still wouldn't change to buying by weight.

SwampDonkey

Trouble with buying on weight is sooner or later some one likes to try and slip the junk in the middle of the load. If he sees you have no scales in the yard, I guess you could guess the weight of the junk and send him packing.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

semologger

Since he is the only one bringing me wood right now. i Let him go to the weight. I scaled a load out and its pretty close to the same price. It was off by around 15 dollars to his favor. so not to bad. I know what you are saying about slipping in some bad wood. Out of 11 ton i only had 7 cull pieces 4 were to dry and and 3 to crooked. When he was in here with his last load i told him i am not buying anything i can not use. So not to be bringing me any thing i cant use. Plus i told him we are going to knock off some weight also because he had wood cut up to haul to the other guy and they were 8 foot. My market is for 7 foot post  for anything under 6 inches . There was alot of 4 and 5 inch post cut 8 foot. I told him with every 7 post i had to cut a foot off was the same weight as 1 post. So i am not happy with this But i need wood.

I am going to buy a tree length load of wood from my day and have it sitting there just to show this guy that he is not the only person i can get wood from. It would be 28 dollars a ton also. And be around 25 ton. I need some wood put back anyways. So i can start stock pile my yard. 

Another thing is that he usualy hauls in wood after dark i have a big light to unlaod with. He said that he would be back in later to unload it. I said but the feed store will be closed and he wouldnt be able to weigh. He said we could just average it out. I said nope not without having it weighed i have to keep my books straight. So this also knocks him out to be able to haul in on sundays. This is his fault not mine he is the one wanting to go be payed by the ton.

semologger

I did go by and talk to the guy at the feed store about the situation. He said that the scales are not certified. But he had a guy from the state in there last month. The scales were on spot on. He said that he couldnt hardly beleive he had that much wood on his truck at one time either but he was the one running the scale. The guy hauling the wood said that he weighed 7300 pound this morning with a full tank of fuel.

motohed

Quote from: semologger on December 10, 2009, 07:05:58 AM
The way i have been paying him is by the piece. I scale him out at the end of the peeler. I am giving him half of what i make. Say if its a 6 inch post i am giving $2.20 a piece I told him i am doing this i guess he just dont trust me ow well. I know i dont trust him at all. I am going to load it up and take it to a truck stop with certified scales to be sure.

I am thinking you have all the answers you need   , you have the amount paid , and a weight ticket  . Check the light weight of his truck ,if he can't supply you with it tell him you want a light weight ticket from the same place he weight before .  If you can just weight a few posts and get an average weight for each and multiply by the number of posts you will have a weight for just the wood . then do the math ,when you get the light weight ticket  from him . Done , you did the math and it will be close enough with in a  hundred pounds to know if he is taking advantage of you . If he won't produce a light weight ticket simply pay by the piece , You both can work together with figures and figures don't lie . But keep in mind weights change with  bad weather , humidity and seasoning . By the piece is alway accurate for you ,and weight may not be accurate for him either .

ely

i used to haul pulpwood back when it was short lenths. and even hauled chipper pine when it was up to 8 ft lenghts. i have a f350 with a drag axle on it. 5 to 7  tons was an average load for me.
i do have one ticket some place that showed 8.98 tons. yes i know not the smartest stuff in the world but you are only 20 once in this world.

it does take its toll on the truck, i did have to finally put in a new rearend. ::)
glad i do not work like that anymore.

oh yeah the bed on my truck is 12 or 13 ft between the bunks. take a little out for the loader winch. on the big load we swung the boom forward and finnished it out by hand loading the rest.

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