Ethanol-free gas availability

[Al_Smith]

Seriously there must be a zillion ways to fuel an internal combustion  engine .Moonshine,Browns gas,home made gasoline ,producer gas from charcoal ,wood alkie .You name ,it's there .

It just boils down to how enthusiastic a person is in obtaining "free" fuel --which isn't really free  if you think about it .

To the subject though which is chainsaw engines .How long they could run on a diet of pure alkie is anybodies guess .A racing kart engine in the 60's was good for about 10-12 races but they were souped to the max .In cold weather they will not start worth a hoot though .

Racing saws is entirely different from a work saw .A racer might run less than two hours total during its' usefull  lifetime .Ran at less than 10 seconds at a time .You can't do that with a work saw .

[PlicketyCat]

That's one of the reasons I was thinking about modifying my little Shindy to see how she holds up on pure ethanol before we actually end up relying on it.  The way I figure, if she runs good and holds up to work most of the year; even if I have to replace her entire fuel delivery system every year, the non-taxable (as opposed to "free") home-brew fuel would be cost effective and we can use one of the bigger saws with different fuel in the winter... cuz, yeah, ethanol only does slightly better in the cold than diesel.  This isn't too great a hardship, since the Shindy won't stay running once it's -10 anyway, guess it never gets that cold in Japan ;)

[tstex]

Gentlemen,

I can appreciate the myriad of both comments and viewpoints, some taken from quantitative research, some learned for the real-life application. 

What is common to all of you is whatever set of resources [fuels/inputs, engine types, tools, etc] you have works for you and you can profit from it, you favor it.  If your resources [now] negatively impact you in anyway that you perceive as either a major inconvenience and/or it costs you more, you are looking for options.  Either way, no one likes change that is to their detriment.

Fact, and putting this into scientific terms, when we suddenly notice the toilet paper roll is down to the last 4-5 squares, we all get creative.  At this point, it is too late to have changed your food consumption rate that got you there and it is too late to change the design of your a-hole.

Fact, hydrocarbon based fuels are far superior in all facets of cost-performance ratios for all of us regardless of where you live.  Almost 100% of all combustion based engines are designed for hydrocarbons and nearly 100% of all world infrastructure is in place to explore, locate, drill, extract, transport, refine and distribute oil-based products and by-products.  Is your keyboard you are using made from alcohol, or the screen you are reading?

Preference, I would absolutely promote to keep all our money here and not send either a dime to the M-East or China.  Fact, however, capitalism, special interest groups, tax bases, greed and "our leaders" will solely dictate what is made and what are our only viable options,  barring any catastrophic event making 911 look like a hiccup.

Right now, we have to do the best we can do with what it is we have and take advantage of any products or services that can help us.

Good luck,
tstex

[PlicketyCat]

Well and admirably stated tstex!

Our government and other powers that be do not care about our individual or collective interests. As with any system, they have gotten large enough to exist solely to keep existing... they no longer serve us.

With that in mind, now that we realize our toilet paper running out can cause us some problems in the future, we (the people) have an opportunity to find appropriate alternative materials, consumption trends, and a-hole design improvements to mitigate the impact for us, based on our needs and what's available to us.  Ignoring that the TP is running out (or could) just delays the inevitable stinky hand!

You don't have to give up on what works, although you may have to work around what the gov't is doing, but looking around for alternatives and trying a few new things certainly couldn't hurt ;)

[Rocky_J]

I just read your signature line and the thought expressed there seems completely opposite from the thoughts you express in your posts. And I'm sorry, but my eyes glaze over when some people start talking about crazy stuff like us running out of toilet paper. Wood is a renewable resource and toilet paper is not made from old growth wood.

[PlicketyCat]

Rocky - I'm truly sorry if you feel that I'm trying to tell you to live the way that I have chosen to live. That certainly isn't my intention, since I firmly believe that people should be able to live as they wish to live as long as it doesn't directly harm others. It has only ever been my intention to expose different perspectives so a problem can be looked at from all sides.

The TP thing - that's an analogy, it wasn't meant to be literal. Sometimes using analogy helps eliminate the arguments about details and focus solely on the core issue.  I often use home-building analogies when talking about complex software designs... home-building is something most people are familiar with and it keeps us from getting side-tracked from the main issue of building a stable infrastructure.

[Rocky_J]

Well all the pie-in-the-sky explanations touting all the benefits of ethanol don't jive with my personal experience. I run small equipment for a living (chainsaws) and Federal regulations have resulted in manufacturers making modifications to meet standards. These modifications result in machines that run very lean and very hot, right on the razor edge of self destruction and user adjustment is limited. Now add an unstable fuel like ethanol to the mix and you have a very major problem of your fuel being fine one day and capable of destroying your source of income the next day. Yes, I have personally seen many engines seized up due to running lean as a direct result of ethanol instability. I've lost a couple myself in spite of being aware of the problems and doing my best to deal with them using the means available to me.

Then we have the incompatibility with seals and gaskets. About 7-8 years ago Stihl decided that the $3 gas and oil caps weren't good enough and they redesigned all their caps into $17 flip top multi-piece caps. The o rings on these caps tend to swell up from the ethanol and the caps are difficult to remove and replace in daily use. After a few months the caps get jammed or forced and then the core separates, rendering the cap useless. I now have to stock several extra $17 gas caps for my Stihl saws solely because of ethanol poisoning.

[PlicketyCat]

You may be surprised, but I do understand and feel your frustration. Some of the so-called "eco-friendly" design changes that have been forced upon us by poorly analyzed legislation affects me as well. Namely the new environmentally friendly gas cans that no one asked if we wanted, they're just suddenly the only thing available.

Advanced spout design combined with child-resistant features and emission reducing technology delivers a user-friendly and environmentally safe storage solution

Those child-resistant features, a thumb depressed ratcheting collar, effectively make this cap-spout impossible to remove at temperatures below freezing because the plastic is too hard to depress. The emission reducing venting system also creates a vapor lock at those temps, permanently vacuum welding the cap to the tank.

Easy-to-use spout features convenient variable flow, automatic venting, automatic locking when lever is released, and an airtight seal when not in use to reduce spills

Again - nifty little plastic locking levers are impossible to move and depress when temps are below freezing. I have to pound the lever with a hammer and then stomp on the flow tab just to get the slow flow. And the new spout is too short and at the wrong angle to pour into my generator without a funnel... who wants to fumble around with a funnel when it's -40 and you're wearing gumby gloves?

So - you see, everyone gets bitten by these rules & regulations because they're a quicky one-size-fits-all solution that completly ignore the needs and conditions of the individual consumers.

[Al_Smith]

Well first of all one must remember that Stihl dealers have several levels of pricing .For example rich self employed tree trimmers are charged 17 bucks for a gas cap .At the same time the price for the same for poverty strickened electricians is about half that . :D No matter what the price though,they suck .

Now then ,home grown moonshine gasoline and wind powered electrical generation and the like might appear to be really neat .However it's highly impractical . About like cutting wood with a bowsaw and axe when a chainsaw would suffice better .

Whatever floats your boat though but 'taint my cup of tea . Now if I had an oil well in the back yard that might be another story but as it is the closest well is a mile away .
Oh I suppose I could sink about a 2000 foot hole in the front field and suck out the oil because I live right over an active oil field . High sulpher stuff .Smells like a bucket of skunk butts .So I think on that I'll just trot off to the gas station which is two miles away and fill-er-up . 8)

[Ironwood]

On the gas cans, you should have run out and bought all the old style you could have before the "improved" ones came out.  ;) I look at the local flea market for the "outlaw" cans :D

FYI, buy ANY diesel engine you want now (generator, BIG truck, SMALL truck), the EPA mandated post burn filtration (urea filters) are a costly solution imposed upon us, costing the average consumers millions of dollars collectively nationwide. Personally, I am looking for a 2000  "ish" 33,000 lb truck w/ a good dependable "old" style engine (but new enough to be more effiecent). Folks tell me avoid a Cat, as the computer "read" is only thru an expensive computer module needing updated yearly. Evidentally, Cummins are cheaper and easier to diagnose.  I bought my Ford F-550 w/ a 7.3, knowing the 6.0 nightmare (pushed out of design early by EPA regs) were the going to be an issue. Now, by the way I am adding lubricity additive to the "new and improved" low sulfur diesel. Great!  :

Never a dull moment trying to keep up Uncle Sam's next round of regs :. I'll get off my soap box now.


          Ironwood 

[PlicketyCat]

I'm circumventing the whole gas can mess and getting the metal ones from "Fire & Safety" -- apparently, emergency crews don't have to follow some regulations.  Although, with a bt of tinkering and the bolt cutters, I've fixed the improved cans so that they are child-unsafe, do not "helpfully" cause vapor lock, and are in the "pour" position unless I intentionally pound them into the "store" position. Now I just have to figure out how to attach one of the old flexi-spouts to it and we'll be all good.

I just love how they help make something "dangerous" more "safe" for us by making it completely unusable :

[tstex]

I just read your signature line and the thought expressed there seems completely opposite from the thoughts you express in your posts. And I'm sorry, but my eyes glaze over when some people start talking about crazy stuff like us running out of toilet paper. Wood is a renewable resource and toilet paper is not made from old growth wood.

Rocky J,

I emphatize with your position and appreciate what impact ethanol has had on your gear.  This is what peaked my interest on the orig post.  A friend of mine recently bought some land and chain saws and made the comment of how the corn-additive to his gas was reeking havoc on his c-saws.  I have 4 c-saws [.023 & up] and over the last 13+ yrs have recently noticed the issues of blended fuels.

My point of the TP was an analogy, meaning run with what we have that works well, but don't wait until we are out of our primary resources thus forcing us to make both a radical and costly transition.  however, it is all about economics.  no one sought real alternative fuels sources until the $150/barrel climb.  Now those folks were killed at $37 a barrel tumble and the current vacillating $70/barrel. 

In a perfect world, it would be great to be able to buy either 100% true gas for a conventional combustion-based engine or 100% ethanol for an engine solely designed for that fuel, and then let the two technologies and their respective supplies duke-it-out.   If an ethanol based engine was built that was truly optimized to run 100% ethanol and it worked great, it would pith those users off too if we then added 10-15% 87 octane to make a blend...

Hope this makese sense.  Either way, I appreciate having a forum where I can get some good info and indulge in some good conversation...you guys would be welcome at my dinner table anytime.

Season's Greetings
tstex

[LeeB]

What time and what we eating?  :D

[old_hb]

Without getting into a pissing contest, the evidence that gasohol is bad for plastic and most rubber gaskets is overwhelming. It shouldn't be a point of dissension. Everyone I've talked to who uses chainsaws, weedeaters and other machines with 2 cycle engines has pointed out that the old advice of emptying your machines for winter or whatever season involves non-use, is no longer valid. I look for gas without gasohol but it is getting harder and harder to find. Using such gas, I've had considerably fewer problems with my many machines than those who use gas w/gasohol.
HB

[whiskers]

that Daniels fellow figured a great way to add color, flavor and a working container, I'd be pleased to leave it with that.