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Geothermal now in operation(update)

Started by Qweaver, December 06, 2009, 12:24:47 PM

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Qweaver

I'm starting this thread just to give some info about how well (or badly) our new Geothermal heat pump is working.   It's a two ton system using two 180' wells.  The total installed cost was $17,000 which included the wells.  We will get a 30% tax rebate which brings the price to $11,900.  A regular Heat pump system would have cost nearly $9000 and with the HVAC costs that I'm hearing other Geo owners say they get, the payback could be just 2 to 3 years.
So far the system has worked perfectly.  We are using a programmable thermostat that allows you to just forget about heating and cooling.  We do like lighting the pellet stove during the day for no other reason than...we just like the ambiance.  I swear it's a more comfortable feeling heat.  Have you ever tried backing your butt up to a heating duct outlet? It just ain't the same as backing up to a stove.  It looks like the pellet stove will actually be quite a bit more expensive to run than the geo...but I already have the pellets and WE LIKE IT.  This may make the actual geo costs hard to accurately determine.
I did not have the water heater loop plumbed in because I am going to add another tank to the system to make it work the best.  I should get nearly "free" hot water if I do it right.  Regular electric water heating is a big part of the electric bill.
I'd like to hear other opinions and especially from current geo owners.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

iffy

You are on the right track going with the second tank for preheat. The super deheater on our furnace will put out a max of 120 deg water. If you run it thru one tank only, and if the element in the tank is set to 120 or warmer, you will never extract any heat from the furnace. It has a temperature sensor that doesn't circulate any water thru the super deheat circuit if it is already 120 or higher. By using a separate tank, the only heat in the tank comes from the furnace. During periods when the hvac is running frequently, the preheat tank pretty much stays at maximum heat. So, if your water heater is set to 130 for instance, you are only raising the temperature of the incoming water by 10 degrees. Of course during the weeks or months you are not heating or cooling, you get no preheat either. So far ours is working great.

flapjack23

A little info to qualify these comments. Built a new house and moved in in 10-07. Used 2X6 walls and wet cellulose for R-25? walls and R-60+ attic. 2600 sq.ft. 2 story house. I put in a Econar Geo. with in-ground loop of app. 6000 ft. of pipe. Installed 2-50 gallon Marathon water heaters, plumbed in series. 1st has Geo desuperheater, furnace and 2 WH hooked to same elec. panel with cheaper rate than regular residential elec. We keep the house at 68 in the winter 24-7, summer 72 during day and 70 at night. Moderate temps we open the windows and turn the Geo. off. In Feb we usually get 2 weeks at -15 or so, but more moderate usually. Highs in summer usually a couple weeks in the 90's few days 100+. I've decided to collect data on a spreadsheet to ensure my H&C and hot H2O costs are reasonable. I have the 1st water heater off at breaker, its just pre-heating the water when the Geo. is on. 3 girls and the wife, I might need to turn it on when they get a little older.


My average monthly for heat/air and hot water is $78.78. Highest heat bill was Feb 09-$161.57. I'm comfortable and my annual cost is $984.76. I figure cost of heat is about $487.57/year (08-09 numbers). The only issue I have is instead of being a slave to the propane or fuel oil man, I'm a slave to the elec. company. I would whole heartily recommend Geo. to anyone.

My future plans include an OWB to heat my future barn and garage (I have a propane heater in the garage now). I'd plumb the OWB to heat the garage (useing the garage thermostat) and split the feed to apply heat to the house (with no control, just passive with fan always on).

The cost of the Geo. added about $8,000+/- to the cost over a propane system, I think my payback will only be 2-3 years. Some of that comes with super insulating the house though (+$3500?).

Andy
Stihl MS361

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: Qweaver on December 06, 2009, 12:24:47 PMWe will get a 30% tax rebate which brings the price to $11,900. 
Quinton,

I just replied in the other thread like a dolt, but have a couple Qs. Is that 30% from Fed or State?

We used to have a couple geothermal tax rebates in Cali, but for some reason they don't seem to have any. I have heard there are some Fed rebates that could still apply. So, curious where the rebate is coming from.

I have used this site to get some rebate info.

http://www.dsireusa.org/

Quote from: Qweaver on December 06, 2009, 12:24:47 PM
A regular Heat pump system would have cost nearly $9000 and with the HVAC costs that I'm hearing other Geo owners say they get, the payback could be just 2 to 3 years.
That is impressive if so...

Which brand pump did you end up with?

I think it makes sense to have a 2nd source of heat, and your pellet stove sounds like a good match. I'm thinking of using a wood stove only because I don't have a pellet stove and I can cut fuel! :-)
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: flapjack23 on December 12, 2009, 11:19:16 AM
My average monthly for heat/air and hot water is $78.78. Highest heat bill was Feb 09-$161.57. I'm comfortable and my annual cost is $984.76. I figure cost of heat is about $487.57/year (08-09 numbers). The only issue I have is instead of being a slave to the propane or fuel oil man, I'm a slave to the elec. company. I would whole heartily recommend Geo. to anyone.
Andy,

Yes, these numbers are more of what I have heard from folks. In Quinton's other geo thread, I replied to Norm who said his was more along the line of $2400/year...I think I pay that for electrical now.

Your number is more of what I have heard. My home will only be about 2000 sq.ft.
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

The numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?  Well that is a silly question.  Where is the electricity coming from to power these units?  Coal, hydro?  If it cost just as much to run the geo unit, isn't it just passing the buck somewhere else with a far more expensive unit?

Why stop at a R-25 wall?  Bump it up to R-60 and R-100 ceiling, then apply one of these units.   

Here is an example of a heat pump that doesn't come with the hassel of thousands of feet of pipe in the ground.  It still uses electricity, though.  How do the two systems compare?

http://www.gotohallowell.com/acadia.aspx

Tim


This is a test, please stand by...

Qweaver

Hi TT,
the rebate is on federal taxes.  I have not checked with the state or electric company...but I will.

Tim, I checked on the Acadia and it sounded good but no one could explain to me how the system managed to make heat with a heat pump at low outside air temps.  They said it was equal to a geo system but could not tell me why or how.  It was not Energy star rated and did not qualify for the 30% tax rebate and that gave me pause.  So I decided to go with the geo.

My system is the Climate Master Tranquility and seems to be working great so far.  When I get back on my feet I will check out the install better.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 16, 2009, 08:07:37 AM
Why stop at a R-25 wall?  Bump it up to R-60 and R-100 ceiling, then apply one of these units.   
Because it doesn't matter??? There is more loss at the windows and doors, and other seams that you reach a point that there is no gain, and it's way before you get to R-60.

Quinton,

That is good to hear that the 30% is coming from the Feds, I will look into that. Do you have any links where info might exist for the feds? I'll check the DSIRE site I linked to above, but it is mostly State, I *think*.

I'm going to get my logs, they just arrived into Cali from Jane Lew today...(they just snuck out before the snow storm last thurs.:-)
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

ronwood

My question is how many of the companies selling geothermal and high efficiency OWB are raising their prices due to the tax rebates. My guess the one that benefits the least is the end consumer. I  priced the Eclassic before the rebates were started and now and the price differential of the Eclassic verses standard OWB of CB had widen considerably. Maybe it was just the distributor that I was talking to.
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

moonhill

I am sure it is possible to build a tight house where higher R-values will be beneficial.  Limit the windows or design for the appropriate climate using the proper window or even a secondary sunny room on the outer walls as a buffer.  Our houses are not built properly for heating or cooling.  We run around thinking of a nifty heating system and apply it to an out of date designed system.  I see plenty of room for improvement. 

Maybe we all should live in wall tents.

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 16, 2009, 08:07:37 AM
The numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?  Well that is a silly question.  Where is the electricity coming from to power these units?  Coal, hydro?  If it cost just as much to run the geo unit, isn't it just passing the buck somewhere else with a far more expensive unit?
I forgot to comment on this before, but the more electricity goes up, the more you will save with geothermal. The reason is simple, you use much less electricity by using geothermal, therefore you will save even more. Yes, your electrical will cost that much more if electrical goes up, but if you didn't have geothermal think about how much more it would go up on you!
Quote from: moonhill on December 16, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
I am sure it is possible to build a tight house where higher R-values will be beneficial.  Limit the windows or design for the appropriate climate using the proper window or even a secondary sunny room on the outer walls as a buffer.
I'm sure it would be possible, and then again, if you make a perfectly sealed home, you probably won't be able to live inside of it without pumping air into it...we do need that to breath, heh? There is just no way that you could prevent air from being transferred into your home. Someone opens a door, or a window, and it's all over. OTOH, I don't think we want that either, it's probably unhealthy to have a home that air can't be transferred to.
Quote from: moonhill on December 16, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Our houses are not built properly for heating or cooling.  We run around thinking of a nifty heating system and apply it to an out of date designed system.  I see plenty of room for improvement.
Sure, but that is exactly how I see geothermal, and while you can call it a nifty heating system, that really doesn't describe it.
Quote from: moonhill on December 16, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Maybe we all should live in wall tents.
No thanks, I'll stick with trees.   smiley_chop
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

As for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently? 

It is zero° outside this morning.  If I open the door and go out to get a load of wood and come back in, all is not lost, I truly don't see a noticeable drop in my indoor temp, or one worth noticing. 

I know a fellow who lives in a yurt.  The walls are almost not insulated and his single pane windows are loose in their frames, the glass will rattle.  He uses no electricity and he runs for his water.  He once brought up the point of insulation, he uses it, but sparingly, more blankets at night, felt wool booties while in the house, and I am sure he has an extra wool sweater on this morning with a nifty wood fire going in the wood cook stove.  Just wanted to point out that I have a respect for his way of living and mine as well as all others, everyone has their own needs/wants.  Geothermal would not work in his case nor mine.  But am glad to see others out leading the front in this technology. 

Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.

Tim 

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Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
As for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently? 
I don't have HVAC, do I need it? I will add it when I use geothermal in the log home though.:-)
Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
It is zero° outside this morning.
Whoa, that sucks...you could use some geo the most. Go 10' down and that ground certainly is not zero degrees.
Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
He once brought up the point of insulation, he uses it, but sparingly, more blankets at night, felt wool booties while in the house, and I am sure he has an extra wool sweater on this morning with a nifty wood fire going in the wood cook stove.
Pure brilliance! Why ever create a warm home when you can just bundle up...?
Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.
You seem a bit bitter that folks are using and/or getting a rebate on their taxes. My part of the country we call that jealousy...
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

No need of the HVAC in a log home, they breath well. 

10', nope, I sit on a lot of ledge, it pokes out of the land all around me, too bad I didn't have a nice deep pond near by, that I may be jealous of. 

It is his personal choice to live in such an manner, it is a choice of efficiency.  He has just chosen a shorter way to the end, others choose to go the long way around.   

I may be bitter more likely it is part of my avatar, but I am just pointing out that I see and hear a lot of folks complaining about the welfare state, aren't rebates a form of welfare for the middle class?  Cash for Clunkers is another grand example.   At risk of having this sent to the junk yard(restricted area) I believe the Country has over spent itself and a holt on all excessive spending should be enacted, from one end of the spectrum to the other, from the poor to the wealthy, and the government should be sent home for an extended period of time, to sit on their hands.

That doesn't mean you should not use Geothermal as a heat source.   

It will be interesting to see what happens to California in the near future, budget wise, I am not jealous. 

Tim   
This is a test, please stand by...

Traditional Toolworks

Tim,

Let's not let this get political, period, take your Cali/Maine 'thang to the junk yard, wherever that is...:-)

Geothermal appears to be about the best use of resource in regards to providing, or being able to pull and use the resources.

I think I have a valuable resource with a lake being close to me, especially, and I own Riparian Rights to the use. That is a huge resource!

But it doesn't completely remove the dependency on electricity, and I'm ok with that. There is nothing wrong with hybrid technology where it makes sense, and geothermal seems to for me.

Sure, log homes breath well, but why wouldn't I want to exchange some of the "hot" summer air, for cooler processed air done with geo? The AC which geo provides is not as cool as typical forced air units, and as such most I've heard get the home to about 78-80 degrees. Still, that's better than 110, which it does occasionally get in Cali. And it makes sense if I can leverage a large body of water to pull a cool resource into my home...

And, FWIW, I will use a wood stove of some type as an additional source of heat. Quinton is doing similar, using pellet.

All that said, I'm just building my house now...I haven't gotten any rebate, nor do I have the house built. Geothermal looks good to me though...yes, even though I didn't expect to get a rebate I have been planning to use it and spend the extra cash up front. Quinton's numbers are good for me in that sense, a bit higher than I expected, but real world. I was expecting more like $12k, but still $17k is not bad.
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

Hey, I can get carried away at times.  I admit it.  The Junk Yard is my own term for a certain area here on the forum, which time will reveal.   

And... don't tell anyone, I just added to my solar system by a substantial amount of cash, it comes with a rebate incentive.  The 3rd expansion in 18 years, the first time we have uses such incentives.  My wife knows the details, I am just the grunt, I think it is tax related, we don't really get cash back. 

I have been out in my unheated shop/mill building, the temp did not get out of the single numbers today with a nice wind.  I realized I am using no insulation in the shop, I had double felt lined boots, long johns, two pare of pants the outer ones wool, three shirts, hooded sweatshirt, and down jacket, and lousy gloves, as insulation.  I still worked enough to sweat a little, using traditional hand tools, BTW.  I was the heat source, and a little passive solar.

Tim



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jmsiowa


flapjack23

QuoteThe numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?

08-09 KWH breakdown by month:
Sept 08     551
Oct 08       858
Nov 08      1395
Dec 08      2069
Jan 09       2471
Feb 09       2069
mar 09      1374
April 09      1034
May 09       623

I agree 100% when the elec rates skyrocket I'll be complaining. I have 2 elec meters, so these are accurate for Geo and water heaters only.

QuoteAs for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently?

I built my house as tight as possible. Spray foam in all gaps, doors, and windows. Didn't do a blower door test, but I'm sure my air exchange would be extremely poor if I had not addressed it during construction. I had a HRV installed, set to run on its lowest speed 24/7. Coupled with the Geo. fan on low setting 24/7 I have adequate air exchange. Drys the house out when its sub 0 though. Have to have a humidifier in the winter. I could have made the window plan a lot more energy efficient, but we gave up a little to have lot of windows.

I've already thought up my next scheme to help with heating $ if (or when) elec goes up. I plan to build a barn. Add an OWB for primary heat in the barn, add a run to heat my garage, tee off the garage run to help in the house (typical in-furnace setup minus thermostat). When the garage calls for heat, the house will receive 50% of the garage heat, and with the furnace fan set to on, supplement the house heat.

Andy

PS The unit I had installed is an Econar Vara 2 Plus. It can be seen at www.econar.com. I'm pretty sure its a 6 ton system.
Stihl MS361

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 04:43:00 PM
And... don't tell anyone, I just added to my solar system by a substantial amount of cash, it comes with a rebate incentive.  The 3rd expansion in 18 years, the first time we have uses such incentives.  My wife knows the details, I am just the grunt, I think it is tax related, we don't really get cash back. 
Tim,

And that's the thing...there are solar rebates in California, and many folks are taking advantage of it. I have been planning to use geothermal even though I didn't expect a tax rebate, just that I feel it is better technology, and saves more in the end.

A rebate is only a piece of what you spend, so it's not as if it's for free. However the 30% is a substantial amount, IMO.

To me the geothermal is safe, clean, and proven.
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

It was in the last lines of the Mother Earth article which reminded me of an issue I have with the air based heat pumps, it is forced hot air, no hot water.  One of the contributing parts to a geo system, I like, is it meshes well with radiant heat.   Meaning multiple choices for back up or other choices if electrical needs should be come an issue.   

Tim

This is a test, please stand by...

scsmith42

Quote from: moonhill on December 17, 2009, 07:51:30 AM

Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.

Tim 


I do not find it to be a case of passing the buck.

Keep in mind that the tax code is one of the primary ways that the Feds manage the economy.   A few years ago accelerated depreciation was offered for folks buying trucks and SUV's for business use.  The larger the vehicle, the more folks are employeed across the entire manufacturing chain.  It worked, too, until the spike in fuel prices caused a massive shift in buying habits.

Massive reductions in energy consumption will reduce the costs associated with infrastructure upgrades, at a time when federal clean air rules are already driving a lot of utility expenses.  By incenting people to invest in energy saving technology, not only are the Feds influencing near term investments in what is largely a US manufactured product, they are also encouraging longer term energy savings, which in turn will result in more discretionary spending as energy prices rise - ie less future economic impact.

And it works too.  I know quite a few people who have invested in improving their home's energy efficiency during the last year's recession, solely because of the significant tax incentive.  This has helped to keep local people busy selling and servicing, and a lot of US firms busy manufacturing.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

moonhill

I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?   

Point in case, Scott.  The Fed promoted the purchase of trucks and SUV's, were they thinking of the future when fuel prices would go up?  No, they just went on and incentivised a plan to have the workers purchase an item to solve a present problem, they needed to sell some trucks, someone did benefit.  Who was it?.   So the business person was left holding the bag and paying the bill, the fuel price.  Pass the buck.   

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

scsmith42

Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 07:55:18 AM
I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?   

Point in case, Scott.  The Fed promoted the purchase of trucks and SUV's, were they thinking of the future when fuel prices would go up?  No, they just went on and incentivised a plan to have the workers purchase an item to solve a present problem, they needed to sell some trucks, someone did benefit.  Who was it?.   So the business person was left holding the bag and paying the bill, the fuel price.  Pass the buck.   

Tim

Tim - good points all.  Seems that for ever action there is some type of reaction...
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 07:55:18 AM
I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?
Can't the same be said for the rebates you got on solar? Why is that different?
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

moonhill

It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.   But I have done a good job up till now.  This was the third up grade to my system, as the need/wants of the family grow so does the demand.  We even had an professional work on the system, he tidied it up nice and neat.  He was the influential factor in the matter.  I am not much different than most folks when and incentive is dangled in front of them.  A difference could be in the way a decision is made, are you choosing to go with an alternative because of the incentive?  Probably not.  I was not, I was making the addition no matter what. 

I think it is a form of marketing, these rebates.  Marketing is a tricky business.  Trying to push something on someone they may not really need.  If these systems were all they are cracked up to be would they need to be incentivsed?  I can speak from personal experience on the solar and wind industry.  It is big money for a system of any substantial size, and it still needs to be kept up.  It is not free energy, by any means.  And I don't think Geothermal is all it is cracked up to be either, try running it off a solar system, without the grid you are stuck.  I am two miles form the grid and I am still hooked to it via a propane truck.  To be clear when I say grid I mean the energy system, primarily fossil fuel.  I believe we are running on a false system and within a few years or less it will become more apparent as energy rises.

Where did the idea of a rebate come from, I bet some psychologist made it up or at least one was consulted. 

How about these outdoor wood boilers, do they use electricity and how much?  It is hard to beat a nice wood stove in the house.  Now I am going to rag on the owb's, I have come close to getting one but haven't made the leap, I am under the impression it will require more electricity via circulator pumps, smaller in comparison to the geo pump requirements though?

Tim   
This is a test, please stand by...

scsmith42

Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.     


:D  :D  :D

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Traditional Toolworks

Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.
At least 'ya got enough testosterone to admit it, and nothing wrong with getting one either, I think me, you, and most others are looking for better ways to provide not just heat, but electrical, and other utilities as well.
Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
I think it is a form of marketing, these rebates.
I always get the impression that the marketing is for done by the folks who have the most to gain, and fossil fuels are what the bulk of America are dependent on. I would like to ease that burden, but don't want to just jump off the grid right now. In fact, I don't plan to do anything yet about where I live in the city, all of my water, gas, and electricity are purchased from the grid.

For me it is that I am trying to devise what I think is the best system possible. Although I don't think there is any perfect system, geothermal looks really good to me, and I have read really good success from people with closed loop systems where their utilities are down to under $100/mo. by using geothermal. I was a victim of Enron, maybe that makes me want to get away from being dependent. I have been planning to use it, and knowing I would spend more, in hopes that it would ease my burden. It is my next house that I will most likely retire to, but that isn't cast in stone yet.
Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
If these systems were all they are cracked up to be would they need to be incentivsed?
Not sure that is true, just that some of these technologies are new, and geothermal is one. Even given total cost, and I know it cost more...but it saves more also.
Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
Where did the idea of a rebate come from, I bet some psychologist made it up or at least one was consulted.
I think both solar and geothermal are good. Just that the gains for the outlay don't seem as good with Solar. I might be wrong, but geothermal seems to have better returns than solar. 
Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
How about these outdoor wood boilers, do they use electricity and how much? 
Not as far as I know. They do heat water also...but it still requires a lot of wood to keep them going...or pellets...wood is pretty messy also, and some folks don't care for it because of that. I am not using it now, but have used it in the past and it is not without fault. I do want it for a 2nd resource, as it can be renewed easily by cutting firewood.:-)
Quote from: moonhill on December 19, 2009, 10:11:42 PM
I am under the impression it will require more electricity via circulator pumps, smaller in comparison to the geo pump requirements though?
That is only for water, AFAIK, but that does require additional. Geothermal requires it also, somewhere to keep the loop going. In my case I want to pump it from the lake up to the house. I think an open loop into the lake would be ideal. The lake is pretty large, so the temp of the water shouldn't vary much at all. It will be cooler always in the summer, and hotter in the winter, because of that.

I have heard the batteries are expensive to replace with solar, and that they need replacement. In theory, geo doesn't require that maintenance...maybe Quinton can comment on that?
The axeman in the twentieth century displaying this determination to find peace and sanity is joined in history to every pioneer who set himself to carving a homestead in a new world.  B.Allan Mackie - "Building with Logs"

WTB - used sawmill around NorCal/Oregon area

Qweaver

Our reasons for selecting geothermal were not mainly the rebate but instead our age.  We had a wood stove for a while and really liked that type of heat but it really becomes a hassle and would have become worse as we got older.  So we went to a pellet stove.  Usually just one bag a day and a quick cleanup every 3 or 4 days and we still have the ambience of a wood fire.  But another factor is that we want to be able to leave the house for extended periods during the winter and needed a system that we could rely on to keep the house above freezing. 
This broken hip has shown the benefit that the geo gives me.  I am burning the pellet stove just because I want to and have 3 tons of pellets setting in the shed and I have cousins that come in each day to load pellets for me.  But for several days I just let the geo do the heating and it was flawless.  As we get older the convenience will be a bigger factor.
Did the rebate help me decide? Sure.  It also helped me decide to buy a newer more efficient pellet stove.  I think the rebate program is a good idea.  If  we can lower energy use because of the rebate program...it makes sense to me.

Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Qweaver

We have found the Geo to do everything that we expected.  There was one early glitch that was purely the fault of the HVAC installers not understanding how the system should work.  They installed a Honeywell thermostat that was bringing on the electric heat when the system went into the morning heating setting or any time the temp was increased over 2 degrees.  It took several arguments with the dealer and finally a call to the manufacturer to convince them that they(the installer) should have used the thermostat that the manufacturer designed to be used for this unit.  The Tech at Climate Master said that this was a common problem and had no idea why the installers would not order the correct thermostat when they ordered the unit.  They ordered and installed the new thermostat and the problem was solved.
Sad thing is that the average user would not have known that the system was not working at any where near top efficiency.  And the installer proved his lack of knowledge by insisting that the system was working correctly when a talk with the factory proved it was not.  I talked to several different dealers before choosing this one and he did do a good job on the install but he should know more about the operation of the system.
But we are really happy with it now.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

doctorb

Quinton-

I use an outdoor boiler for heat, and AC units for AC in the summer.  I just digested this geothermal thread and found it interesting.

Prior to purchasing my wood boiler, I investigated Geo.  Even got 2 estimates.

My house is heated with hot water baseboard.  Can't use geo for that.  I would have to use the existing AC ducts for forced hot air heat.  The warm air would be delivered at ceiling level in my upstairs because the AC was retrofit through the attic.  Because of the strange setup of my house, I would need three, yes three, units for geo: one in each of my 2 basements and one in the attic.  I would need two different well systems to supply these units.  The cost was astronomical.  Both estimates between 55 - 60K!

I can buy a lot of wood for 60K.  While my electric bill is up in the summer, I am hoping to add some solar cells to mitigate that cost.  I really like hot water baseboard / radiator heat over FHA.  All things considered, I tried to go geothermal, but couldn't due to the price.  I think geo may be great for new construction, but dependent upon the existing house, it may be less attractive for homes built with radiant or hot water baseboard heat.

Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Kansas

I put in a geothermal system in the new house when it was built last summer. I used the pond I put out front of the house and put the coils in there, covered in gravel so they couldn't get snagged by someone fishing. It took awhile to get the bugs worked out. Because the pond had just filled with very cold water, they thought that was the problem. Finally getting someone else in fixed it in 10 minutes. Its a 4 ton unit. The air conditioning is wonderful. The heating is fine, until you get about a 50 degree differential between the outside air and the thermostat. Then the electric kicks on. I love this log home, but I don't think the R value is enough for a 4 ton unit. I plan on using the fireplace more this next winter.

Randy88

Not to offer any criticism but when I checked into it I got a lot of different answers and not many were good, the people I know who had geo complained about the electric bills and a friend of mine is an electrician and he told me not to do it period, he went on to explain the higher pressure systems were a repairmans dream come true, he's made a good living going around and repairing them once they are off warrenty.   His explaination was as follows and I was wondering if anyone else had simular problems.   He told me for cooling they are great and efficient, but the heating is a different story, the switching from heating to cooling in a short period of time takes its toll on the switches and pumps to go from heating to cooling in say a day, in the night it heats and works one way and during the day the outside air warms up to the point its too hot inside and then switches to cooling and back again in the evening again to heating.   He told me the cost to keep all the switches going was high priced and always a constant deal, and the cost for electricity for some of the houses we looked at that had them were off the chart as well, I asked him and his explanation was the cost to heat up the water above 50 degrees and what the heat is captured off the compressors isn't enough to get the water up to and maintain say 72 degrees and when it switches back to cooling, the water has to be cooled again to 50 degrees as it is coming out of the ground and its not efficient enough system and consumes a lot of electricity to achieve this.   He claimed in other areas where you didn't have the temp swings in the spring and fall the systems would work better.   

Now several of my relatives have geo in their homes and I've gotten out of them what their electric bill is and I almost fell over, one is at even pay of 350 per month and the other is 270 even pay.   I know of a house thats over 500 even pay but its also a monster of a new home but still, isn't that a bit high.   The guys I've talked to did figure in the repairs and maintance and one told me he wishes he'd never seen the geo at all due to the upkeep and maintance thing.   Now I'm not condembing the systems but has anyone else had problems or know of someone who did or have a high electirc bill, way more than they were told they should expect to have?    I looked into it myself but after talking to enough that have the systems I backed off and said I'd just wait and see first.   

Now I thought maybe someone was installing them wrong or something like that but I found out there was three differnet companies units and three different installers that I talked to the home owners of.   I've talked to over two dozen owners who were not happy and was wondering if its a phase as far as geo or is it here to stay.   My friend the electrician told me to do the cooling only version and forget the heat and cool version but he's the only one to give that recommendation at all.   I think we also have a higher rate per kilowatt cost as well if thats all your electric bill is for the kilowatts used but maybe I'm wrong.   I don't want to get into an arguement here I'm not for or against anything but I'm looking for information on these systems and others experiences both good and bad. 

doctorb

Randy-
I too am interested in the real experience with geothermal.  You are correct, the AC / cooling is more efficient than heating.  There is no question that the initial outlay of $ is large.  If the real electric costs are anything like what you've reported, then this is a scam in the making.  I know others who have geo, and either they aren't telling if their electric bills are huge, or I never asked.  I do not think that it's as bad as you've been told.

Like many things, I think that all geo units are not alike, and th efficiency, while advertised as very high, is variable.  Hope you get some responses to your querie.

doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Randy88

My friend the electrician told me that there are two basic types, high pressure and low pressure the low pressure is only cooling and the high pressure is both, I like simpicity and thats as basic as I got for an explanation, the high pressure systems basically reverse directions for heating and cooling, they run one way to capture the heat off the compressor and use it in the house and reverse directions to put the excess heat into the ground off the compressor for cooling.    Now if this isn't right I'd like someone to explain it differently in simple english and correct me as to what I've been told.   My friend expained the compressors were not built heavy enough to take the long term use and the efficiency isn't there to heat the water the rest of the way up to say 72 degrees by using electricity, I"ve not seen or talked to anyone who uses gas to heat the water the rest of the way up and if there is some company doing it I haven't seen them either.   His basic complaint was the switching and controls to do the switching, because they are a more patented or supply controlled, I'm searching for a simple word to describe this, anyhow they are high priced and short lived deal, he's got a lot of houses where he's put in several of the switches and pumps and his thought was once they get about so old they never seem to work right.    He has figured out there were a lot of systems put in wrong as far as the electrical end was concerned and talked to the company reps and got them straightened out but as he put it its not a simple system in the least and to trouble shoot them is a nightmare with their control panels and switches.   

He also went on to tell about the first ones out on the market that were basically experimental units, he gave me several names of people who have just abandoned them and put in regular furnaces again due to the upkeep costs and high electric bills.   We discussed brands and installers and who to try and who to avoid as far as the amount of units they have installed and of those how many has he had to go in and make work due to poor installation and I eliminated one brand and installer right off the get go, I think it was the installer more than the unit from what I gathered.    He also went onto explain a lot of the electrical usage came from the higher pressure pumps that are used to generate the heat, he claimed they were not built heavy enough to take long term use and abuse of constant switching directions, and the size needed to make the systems work were larger electrical hogs coupled with the electricity used to heat the water up to 70 some degrees wasn't efficient enough system, thats also what the people I talked to complained about the most, was the efficiency wasn't there.   

Now a lot of these systems went into existing homes and when you stood back and looked I'm thinking maybe they weren't insulated enough and the windows were too old and in need of repalcement but theres a church in town that has went with geo and its also the church my electrician friend goes to and he told me its not advertised but the electrical bill is on even pay and its over a grand a month and the church council is very upset for what they spent and what they were told to expect for an electrical bill and he's gone into try and troubleshoot it and he claims its installed and hooked up correctly but the size and capacity it is for the building, its just not feasable to have done and will never be efficient.   

We have talked the difference in cost of operting and upkeeping a regular funace and the geo ones and it basically came down to, do you want to buy gas or electricity but it was a toss up, not a major money saver when all the costs were factored in.    Almost all the ones I've talked to complained about the electrical bill and its not what they were told to expect at all, its way higher, I tried to compare between new house construction, old house construction, new installation at the time of construction, installation after a few years, by brands, by installer, by electrical company, by area say in a city or a rural setting and it just got so confusing I basically gave up and went with an out door wood boiler and cut and split firewood and said we'll wait for new updated models and see then.    I'm a big believer in research and the new technology and efficiency and saving money but also simplicity, now is this just in my area or is this different areas as well so maybe thats why I'm posting these questions, maybe its just my area and thats not the best place for geo, so as they say my research continues. 

Qweaver

Well Randy, everyone that I talked to before I decided on geo told the exact opposite.  We have only had this unit for last winter and this summer and it has exceeded my expectations on both performance and power use.  My system is made by Climate Master and is one of the highest ranked.    It's true that the cooling side supplies more BTUs than the heating but it is a fairly small difference and I sized my system to meet the heating demands.   
My system installed, including the cost of drilling the wells, was $17,000.  With the 30% government rebate,  it cost $11,900.  There was a lot of ductwork cost in this price and I doubt that I could have got a regular all electric heating and cooling system put in for much less.  I don't have easy access to gas and using electric strips for heat is costly. Seemed like the smart move to me.   

If I have a lot of problems with the systems maybe I'll change my mind...but again, other Climate Master owners that I talked to said it had not been a problem.   Also, all of the houses around me are on free or reduced cost gas and they were often out of gas last winter and my system never shut down.  I also have an 11,000 w generator that will keep my pellet stove and HVAC unit running even if I lose electric.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

scsmith42

Quinton, how much has your electric bill been running?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Qweaver

Hey Scott,
Our average monthly electric bill is $100 or less.  It was only $50 a couple of months during the winter.
It's hard to put a number on what it is costing to run the Geo system because of all the other things that we are running.  The house is all electric and our main workshed with welders and large air compressor is on the same meter.  Plus my cousin has 2 large commercial coolers and a freezer in our workshed which use a lot of power.  Sarah runs the water heater completely empty when she uses the Jacuzzi tub and that's a couple times a week.  I know that everone thinks that gas is cheaper but I know people that have $200 to $300 gas bills during the winter in 1500 to 2000 SgFt homes. 
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Randy88

Any idea of the kilowatts your using a month, I've never had that low of bill ever in my life and thats before we had central air and even if nobodys home, your cost per kilowatt has to be a lot cheaper than I have, or is that what you figured for the cost of the heating and cooling only?

Qweaver

Randy,  we have an 1100 SqFt house in Texas that has $200 to $300 monthly electric bill in the summer and around $150 in the winter.  That's for a total electric house.  That's with a two year old 17 seer AC unit.  Here in WV the cabin is less than 1000 SqFt and very well insulated.  We do use good energy management practices.  Many people don't and their utility bills will show that.  We just got rid of the coolers and freezer, so our next months bill should give us a really good idea.  The highest electric bill that we have ever had in the cabin was $120 and we were running the planner, spindle molder and other large machines almost every day during that month.  You almost sound like you don't believe what I am saying!  Again I say that I talked to several Geo owners before I decided to install mine and everyone of them were happy with their system.  I think that the early systems had some issues that have now been solved.  I'll dig out our past bills today just to compare.

OK!  Well I just checked last winters and this summers bills and I'm wrong.  The highest bill was actually $166.31.  BUT the previous months bill was an estimate of $44.29 and the large bill just made up the difference.   And the month that I was running all of the machinery was actually $159.52.  All of the other months were slightly above or below $100.

My KWH charge is $.083 to $.09  
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

WH_Conley

I have some neighbors that have geo, their electric bill is always lower than mine, bigger houses. Newer and better insulated I am sure.
Bill

Qweaver

OK, now I'm starting to beat a dead horse but here are my bills year to date.  Note that the Jan/Feb bills are high.  This was right after I broke my hip and I was running the Geo full time. This was before I convinced the HVAC installer that he had installed the wrong thermostat and the heat strips were running way too much.  Now they hardly ever kick in.  When you consider all of the machinery, motorhome, coolers and freezers that are being run...this is a very low cost for electricity I think.  

We are going back to Texas for Jan/Feb and the geo will be running all of that time.  I'm pretty confident that the geo will be cheaper than running the pellet stove at about $4 per day for pellets.  We just like the atmosphere of the stove.
Here is the electric info.  It's a little different that what my memorey was telling me but the average of $121 per month is about what I expected.  It should be much less from now on.  I'm a little surprised at the 9 cents per KWH cost.  Seems really low to me.




So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Al_Smith

I'm a little late for the party but I'll give you my experiances with a geo-thermal .

I've had two,first a used Hydra -Delta that worked just fine until the heat exchanger went out which caused the compresser to suck water which obviously it didn't digest very well .It was cheap but due to the fact it had a pure copper exchanger it didn't hold up to sulpher water very long .Then again 8 years wasn't too bad considering I only paid 800 for it .

The replacement is a 5 ton Water furnace which by the way was a splinter group that originally worked for Hydra -Delta,trivia more or less .In northern Ohio or any cold climate you have to size the unit for the greatest usage and due to the fact it's colder here more than hot then heating has to be taken into account .

To not cause the "refridgerator " effect during extreme cooling condition a lower speed fan setting is used .This of course knocks down the effciency but gives longer run time as to dehumidify the air .Otherwise you nearly freeze to death ,just like a deep freeze .

A geo is certainly the most efficient way to heat or cool but it isn't free by any means .Best to use a goodly amount of insulation in the home to help defray the cost of operation .

Now then during temps of below about 25 degrees I heat with a woodstove so in effect during that period seldom does the unit even run .It will however if needed produce way more heat even at 10 below zero as the unit is 5 ton and the house has around 30,000 btu per hour heat loss give or take .

At any rate that replacement cost me a tad under 3500 bucks but because of certain "connections " I got it at cost .I kinda figure verses the cost of resistance electric heat and even discounting the woodstove I should more than cover the cost in 4 maybe 5 years at the most .BTW the average life of most geo units is around 20 years for what that's worth .

Qweaver

Are you using wells Al ?  I guess not with the reference to sulpher.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Al_Smith

Yes as a matter of fact ,one well ,no reentry type thing .

Long story,I have two wells ,one nearly 200 feet deep which has in a tinge of sulpher thanks to an oil well  but that's a story in itself .The other which is 117 feet has 4.5 percent bacterial iron which would be worse for a geo unit than the sulpher .

On this new unit it's a coated cuppra -nickle exchanger so it should hold up in the long haul .

I already had the well and could not see plowing in like 2800 feet of loop pipe .

Qweaver

In my case the wells have a pipe loop in them so the AC unit never has anything but anti-freeze solution cycled through it.  The wells are also filled with a gel to improve heat exchange.   I don't know what it is but I watched the driller mix it up and pump it down the well until it flowed out the top.   I thought the drilling cost was high until I watched the entire process.  The driller really knew his trade and earned the $4000 cost for the two wells and plumbing.  Any thing can fail but this entire installation looks good to me.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

iffy

That was probably a bentonite slurry he pumped in. That is what they put in mine. They did 4 wells for me 200' through solid rock. They showed up sometime after 8:00 in the morning and if I would have waited until noon to come home I would have missed them.

submarinesailor

Quote from: iffy on October 19, 2010, 08:36:20 AM
That was probably a bentonite slurry he pumped in.

When we did 11 wells for the Geo-thermal installation at the Crash and Rescue building at the USMC Quantico Flight Line, we had to use bentonite to hold the wells open until we could get the piping in place.  Every time the driller pulled the bit, the hold would collapes.  BTW - The flight line was built on fill from the Potomac river.   

Bruce

Al_Smith

 You just have to use whatever water source is most conveniant I suppose . Could be a ground loop ,deep well loop ,water well or Lake Erie if you were close enough . I know people that have closed loops sunken in ponds that do pretty well .

Where I work has most likely one of the larger system there is .At the present it's cooling machine process water  and about 400 thousand square feet of manufacturing space , in an auto engine plant .With some alterations it will be able to cover the entire 2 million plus square footage of that building . Deep water spring fed abandoned  lime stone quarry , with bottom temp of below 50 degrees .Now that's cold for ground water . 36" supply and return lines with around 1500 HP pumps  .Plain water to air exchangers .Simple system but a big one at that .

No heating capabilties which puzzles me as the return temp of the water is 96 degrees .I'll never understand big business I guess .

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