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making money the thin kerf way ?

Started by paul case, November 12, 2009, 11:27:17 PM

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paul case

i am curious about charging by the board foot . a 2x6 is actually 5 1/2'' x 1 1/2''.  when you charge by the board foot is a 2x6 a bd ft. per lin ft? i have been charged this way and i charge this way but i was wondering if this is standard? 
what about log scales? i bought a doyle scale because thats what the pallet mill i used to sell logs to uses. my bandmill cuts 1/4 to 1/3 more bd ft than this scale.good deal for the log buyer i guess, does any else experience this???   pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

brdmkr

Paul,

A bdft is 1 foot x 1 foot x 1  inch.  So a 2 x 6 that is one foot long would be a board foot.  Some sawyers charge by the literal board foot and others would charge for a board foot for the nominal measure of 1.5" x 5.5". 

Regarding log scales, the Doyle scale penalizes small logs.  A small log will generally have very low bdft estimate using Doyle.  In contrast, really large logs may actually provide lumber yields that are not that much greater than the Doyle estimate.  So, if logs are on the smaller size, the Doyle estimate will be low relative to what can be sawn and the log buyer may do a little better.  This would diminish as log size increases when using Doyle.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Tom

Yes, it just so happens that a 2x6 has the same number of board feet as its length.

I sawed for many years and charged by the board foot.  Width in inches x height in inches x length in feet and divide the whole mess by 12 will give you board footage of a stick, a stack or a room full, if you account for air space.  I usually would round down for lengths and use nominal figures for H and W.  Board foot is a volume measure for measureing rough lumber only.

There are grading rules that complicate the computation of Board feet, and I know of a fellow that is a real stickler for it, but I'm not selling wood, I'm counting what I sawed and it's between me and the customer.

The international scale comes the closest to matching thin kerf sawmill production. But, I don't scale logs unless I absolutely have to do it.  I would saw the customer's lumber and we would count up the "chargable" results at the end of the day.  No muss, no fuss and we both would be happy.  That gives you the chance to apply some generosity, if you so desire, as well.

Welcome Paul


Magicman

Virtually 100% of the framing lumber that I saw is sawed to "dimension" sizes (1.5X3.5, 1.5X5.5, etc.) plus shrinkage.  A 2X4-8 scales 5.3BF and that's what I charge for.  Most "flat" lumber is sawed 1"X6" etc. actual size. 

Sawing/using actual 2"X4", etc. serves no purpose IMO.  You have to buy larger/longer nails and if you run out of lumber, "store bought" lumber doesn't fit.  I highly discourage it's use, and the customer always appreciates being told what his options are.  They always choose "dimension".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

paul case

you all
i always charge gor lumber and sawingby the board ft of what the dimmension should be except when i cut with the bark on the sides or very odd shaped pieces that take a long time to setup for.the only time i use the doyle scale is if im buying logs. t seems fair . i do get more lumber than the scale but the logs here in our area are notorious for holes and bad spts in them that cannot be seen till sawn. that scale is the on most sawmills in my area use.on logs up to 235 scaled brd ft i made as much as295 brd ft on 12 ft logs.    just my luck more than i paid for but the ones with defects make up for it      pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

backwoods sawyer

I must be the odd ball here, because as my company name states I "CUSTOM" saw so I charge only for what I saw. A 1.5 x 5.5 is not a 2 x 6 to me, but a full 2 x 6 is. I let the lumberyards and box store charge for more then they are selling, (they have the Lawyers). If the customer wants a ¾" thick board he is charged for a ¾" thick board, and if he wants 1 1/8" he is charged for 1 1/8".
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

beenthere

As long as you are making money. What you charge for a bd ft. (whatever it is, however it is measured) will determine the profit, if any.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

John Bartley

It's just easier to saw whatever dimensions the customer wants, charge by the hour (+ damaged bands), and let the customer worry about what a "board foot" is. I know what a board foot is for me (144 cu.in.), but I don't care to argue about it with the customer. Charging by the hour and giving the customer the dimensions they ask for is just easier....

cheers

John
Kioti DK35HSE w/loader & forks
Champion 25hp band mill, 20' bed
Stihl MS361
Stihl 026

woodmills1

charge by the hour and give the first band for free.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Tom

There is nothing wrong with charging by the hour if you like living on a salary.

You will soon realize that  the production off of an LT15 is a bit less than off of a Baker 3638.  There is also a bit of a difference in the amount of lumber one year of experience creates as opposed to ten years.

If you charge by the hour, would you compete with the larger machine and more experienced sawyer?
If you are the more experienced sawyer, how do you justify competeing with the lessor experienced one.

I think you will find that, in the end, even the hourly charge is based on board footage, not making a living salary. :)

paul case

is there anyone of youall that buys logs? i would be interested what scale you use.i said before that i buy some now and then and use the doyle scale. today i picked up a log to saw for a lady . she wanted to know how much it would cost up front. i scaled the log and it read 160 so i told her 200 or more and we actually got 235. i was told that this scale allows for a 3/8 kerf. is this true?  just wonderin   pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

aksawyer

Here in Fairbanks most all people prefer what you are calling "flat sawn".We call it full demention.Our customers like getting full boards for full price and they prefer having more wood to nail into.Dont saw just to match what home depot or the local lowes sales just because we ran out of wood.Everytime you go there your dollar is worth less.Aksawyer.....-20 by monday.

Brucer

There's two kinds of definitions: technical definitions and operational definitions.

Technical definitions say what something is. For example, a board foot measures 1" x 12" x 12", or an equivalent volume of wood.

Operational definitions say how you go about measuring something. In Canada, softwood lumber is measured (by law) by it's nominal dimension to the nearest inch and by it's length rounded down to the nearest foot. The operational definition also says that a board foot for anything under 1" thick is the nominal width multiplied by the length.

So a "store-size" 2x6 measuring 1-1/2" x 5-1/2" and 8'-1" long is calculated as (2 x 6 x 8 )/12 = 8 BF. The tongue and grove cedar on my ceilings measures 3/8" thick by 3-1/4" wide, but is calculated as 4"/12" = 1/3 BF per foot of length. I didn't know about operational definitions when I bought it and was sure I was getting ripped off.

If we didn't have operational definitions, we'd never agree on anything. The outcomes of US (and Canadian) elections are determined by operational definitions. Census results are determined by operational definitions. Tax deductions for depreciation are determined by operational definitions.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Kansas

When we are selling lumber we sell by actual volume, although much of what we cut is "lumberyard size". We sell a lot of trailer decks. Many times a customer will call up and want to know what the board foot price is. That takes a little explaining to do, and I have found that I'm better off to get the size of the trailer and price it that way. I can also then lay out other options including thickness, with the different prices. I have also had people call for lumber for repairing or building barns, etc. They say they want full demention lumber, but when you price both that and nominal, more often than not they go with nominal. They don't realize how much more lumber is in full size. Once had a lumber broker who couldn't understand why I could not cut a full 2 inch thick pallet runner for the same price as a standard one. I had to work him through the math. Then he turned around and found a mill that would actually do it for the same price. Either they didn't understand the difference, or they were a lot hungrier than I was.
We use doyle scale around here on everything except for cedar. That is how logs are bought and sold in this area.

paul case

KS,
the doyle scale is the one used by the large mills in my area also. i use it if im buying because it gives me a little room for imperfections in the log that cant be seem unitil inside with the saw. what method do you use when buying cedar? i have traded for some cedar but only 1 log for sawing 1 log. what is cedar lumber worth in your area?      pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

moonhill

I use the International rule, some use the Bangor rule. 

For rough cut stock 1.5x5.5 x length ÷ by 12=board footage, no other way to look at it, otherwise someone is loosing, so be honest and fair.  Now if you were to mill/machine the rough cut 1.75 x 6 to a tongue and grove decking product my all means charge for the rough dimension, the grey area would be the .25 inches I would round it up to the full two for simplicity.

Tom is right on with the hour vs board foot dilemma, again, or we would all be sawing with home made saws with little electric motors on them propelled by log and pulley systems, measuring progress in feet/minute.   If you were sawing something truly custom by the hour would be the way to go.  As an example cutting 4" cedar planks then making a curved jig in which you fix the saw in the middle and hand push the bolts through to produce a curved piece than by all means charge by the hour.     

Tim   
This is a test, please stand by...

Kansas

Paul
The cedar scale we have is close to the international scale. Its a lot friendlier to the smaller logs. I will look at it when I get over to work.
I thought Cedarman, or someone, had once posted a cedar scale on here, but I can't find it in the archives.

LeeB

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Tom

Brucer said:
QuoteThere's two kinds of definitions: technical definitions and operational definitions.

Rough cut 1x material is 1" - 1 1/8", or whatever the customer and you agree.  It is still considered 4 quarter material right up until it reaches 1 1/4"  material. Then it becomes 5 quarter.

So, there is a way to legitimately sell sizes, close to dressed, by using the quarter scale.  Talking about softwood construction, dimensional lumber here.

Just cut and sell the 2x's as 6 quarter.  The widths are on 2" centers but you will come closer to dressed if you put the blade on the board side (use the real inch scale).  What it really boils down to is that it is between you and customer as to what works.  When you are selling wholesale or to an unknown, especially when shipping the wood sight-unseen, You need to know the rules.

Dressed lumberyard lumber is not measured in Board feet using the dressed sizes.  Board foot is, at best, a volume measure of rough cut lumber.  Rough cut lumber is large enough that the dressing customer can get dressed sizes from it when he runs it through a planer.

Cutting dressed sizes on a sawmill can not be done as accurately as a planer.  You have miscuts, wandering blades, tooth marks, and different shrinkage depending on the orientation of the grain from piece to piece.

The only way to get dressed sizes, accurately, is to stick all of the sticks through the same hole.  Customers don't understand the diminished size of 1 1/2 being a 2x so most lumberyards switch to linear measurement.  If you aren't paying for the extra wood, you are paying for the machining.

It's is best to talk to customers about your trying to get as close to dressed sizes as you can, rather than bringing the board foot measurement into it.  Personally, I try to stay away from cutting dressed sizes. You can't rely on the outcome and there is no relationship, thickness to width, that relates to turning a cant and busting up a log as well as working in full inches.  Even then, you generally have to use a bit of kentucky windage.  :)

If a customer understands and still wants to be charged 2" for an 1 1/2" board, do it. ;D

Magicman

Quote from: moonhill on November 15, 2009, 07:49:42 AM
For rough cut stock 1.5x5.5 x length ÷ by 12=board footage, no other way to look at it, otherwise someone is loosing, so be honest and fair.

Tim  

There is nothing dishonest about the charging method that I use when sawing dimension sized lumber.  It is all described in the contract that both the customer and I review and sign before beginning the job.

Quote from: Tom on November 15, 2009, 12:44:12 PM

If a customer understands and still wants to be charged 2" for an 1 1/2" board, do it. ;D

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Chuck White

There are sawyers around here who establish "their" minimum cut!

That is, if their minimum cut (thickness) is 1", then even if they saw ½" boards for a customer, the customer is still charged for 1"!

Things like this "must" be explained to the customer prior to sawing anything!

_______________________________


I have sawn 6/4X4X8 for a couple of customers and informed them that the charge would be the same as for a 2X4X8.

They said that was not a problem.

We both need to be on the same page before sawing!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Magicman

Yup,  I call it the "dog" board.  It's always 1+ inches thick.  If I'm cutting 1/2" lumber, the dog board will be 1".  BTW, that 1/2" lumber will be scaled/billed as 1".  It's covered in the contract.  Never a problem.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

paul case

same way at the case farms mill. 1 '' is the minimun size. always explained never left understood. guessin that someone understands will cause problems.  have had no one in 2 years of sellin and custom sawing that i wasnt able to make a agreementwith.    i still believe even in these tough times owning a sawmill and sawin my logs and custom sawin for others pays well. jobs may not be regular but im makin more than i was selling logs and most folks who use my ruff cut lumber are a pleasure to deal with.      pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

DR_Buck

I use the International scale if the customer wants an estimate of what it might cost.   

When I saw its L x W x H in inches ÷ 144 x bf rate for the finished pile of lumber.   That keeps it simple for the customer and me.  I've never had it questioned or disputed.
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

paul case

a customer brought me some logs to make full 2x12's - 16' for trailer floor. heres one log.



and heres the middle sawn up.


the log scaled 255.
made 8- 2x12's and 9 1x6's all 16'
thats 328 bd ft.
took about 1 hour to saw and pays $98.
1 happy customer and 1 happy sawyer.  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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