Logger took about 4 acres of 80 year old hardwoods without permission.

[ncguy444]

Hi there.. first time poster but long term lurker. I have some land in eastern North Carolina which is half plantation pine  and the other half 75-85 year old mixed harwoods. Situation is I had a logger come and thin out my 18 year old plantation pines and take out about 3.5 acres of mature pines. There is another landowner  to the side of me that was logged by the same time as mine by the same logger except he had all his hardwoods clearcut in the back half of his property that bordered mine. I told the logger I wanted to keep my hardwoods in place and was not interested in selling them because I like the beauty and solitude they provide. I let the logger use my road to access the other tracks that were not mine. It stated in the contract he had to leave the road in as good or better shape then when he started. He did not do this as the road which is about half mile long was all rutted out. He also totally destroyed my access gate and knocked over some property pins that were clearely marked with ribbon. He said he would fix the gate and find the pins but never did (I never really pursued it though). That is not what I am really inquiring about though. Where my hardwoods bordered with my neighbor. The one who clearcut his the logger encroached about 100-110 feet in for about 1,600 feet which is about 3.86 acres.  I was working on the property this summer and it looked like he encroached but I was unable to find the pins. I did an arial at the county web-site and it was very clear. I recently hired a surveyer to find my pins and to give me an estimate of the area effected which is where I got the 3.86 acres. Here is the deal.. I don't want to sue this guy because I hate burning bridges and I want to give him a chance to make it right without using the legal system. The logger originally paid me $3.00 a ton for pulpwood and I got about 3,000 for about 3.5 to 4 acres of mature pines that was in a small patch in the middle of my property. I kind of thought this was a little low and it was about a year and a half ago when prices were much higher. I would appreciate some honest opinions as to  what do you feel is a fair amount to ask the logger for the 4 acres of 80 year year old hardwood timber he cut without my authorization? Thanks

[timberfaller390]

If it has been a year and a half ago and you haven't filed any kind of claim or report before now then you may be up the creek without a paddle.

[ncguy444]

I have not been to my property since he logged until this summer. This is when i first thought that it looked like he encroached. It was not until the new arial surveys from the county came out that I first knew for a fact this happened. This is when I hired the surveyor who gave me the information a couple days ago. I thought that it was a year or two upon discovery. I just found out.  thanks

[timberfaller390]

Ah, I understand now. As I have said in othr topics similar to this one, We are a bunch of loggers, sawmillers and foresters not lawyers, you need a lawyer. You can try to reason with the guy but if he won't listen to reason then you have no other recourse but to file suit. Get ahold of a copy of the Hardwood Market Report and find out what your particular species of hardwoods were worth on the stump at the time of cutting. Then get a forester to help you come up with a fair guess as to how much timber was actually taken. Once you have this information in hand contact the logger and if he is honest and didn't know the boundries then you shouldn't have any trouble. If however he is not going to make things easy on you  (which from what you have said I don't think he will) then your two options are to either eat the loss for the timber or get a lawyer and work it out in court.

[ncguy444]

Thanks timberfaller for you input. Without having to go to all the expense of getting the timber professionally appraised  do you or any other members have a number you can throw at me which you would consider fair price with the information I initially gave. I know you all ain't lawyers and neither am I . I am just a landowner of a few pieces of timberland looking not for legal advise just a hypothetical if you were in my shoes. I know ther are alot of what ifs but I try to live life under the KISS theory(keep it simple stupid).

[timberfaller390]

Without some more info such as size and approx. number of trees it is almost impossible to say.
Situation 1. All trees are straight and clear. 3 acres of this kind of timber could be worth quiet a bit.

Situation 2. Some trees were good some were not. This type of stand is still worth quiet a bit but not as much as if everything was choice.

Situation 3. All trees are crooked, knotty and only fit for pulpwood. these trees wouldn't be worth anywhere near what the trees in the first 2 situations would be.

I know you are wanting a dollar figure but I don't think any of us would be able to come close to putting a value on timber that we have never seen. Maybe if you can come up with some more info and maybe some pictures we can be more help.

[Hilltop366]

I wonder if your logger payed the other land owner for your trees, if he honestly thought they were part of the other lot he should have, That might make a third party in this matter.

Something else to consider.

[ncguy444]

I did think about that... this gets more interesting. Also ,I have a ton of pictures but can't get them to post.  It is really a general mix of coastal plane hardwoods. Alot of oak, maple, etc. with the age around 80 years old.

[Chico]

Also if you were thinking of building a home there the trees are worth more in some states for astechtic (sp)value

[ncguy444]

Thats what i was thinking plus i got alot of critters back there like bears and bobcats. Lots of snakes too.  The surveyor a couple days ago almost got bit by a timber rattler. Did not see it and it did not rattle because it was digesting a big rat or something. Surveyor said he got to within 4 foot of it and killed it with a brush machete. He was shaking the rattle while he talked to me. Crazy thing is when the cleared the front part for the planted pine one of the loggers got bit by another timber rattler. Good thing snakes don't bother me.

[ncguy444]

Is there a way to post jpeg images from my pictures or do i have to something confusing.

[red oaks lumber]

i see a few things wrong here
1) were the boundries clearly marked? if not both the logger and landowner are at fault.
2)was the sale setup by a forester? if so, contact the forester, if not, logger and landowner are at fault.
3) what bridges don't you want burned? peace with your neibor?he should know his property lines, maybe did,  pocketed the money .
my opinion, call a lawyer, let him guide you.

[beenthere]

Is there a way to post jpeg images from my pictures or do i have to something confusing.

Easy to post pics. Set up your own gallery, and click on the Java Uploader below this blue window. If you don't have Java, then download it free.

Go to the "Behind the Forum" on the Home page, and there you will find the thread on posting, for Mac users too.

[ncguy444]

Here are some pictures. In he ones that show the clear cut if you look really close there is a lone tree in the distance that is the actual property line. What do you think of the timber?? By the way thanks for all the help!

[James P.]

hello and sorry to hear about your experience. I only own 8 1/2 acres and nothing close to 80 year old hardwoods. I am clearing my land for replanting. Even though its mostly junk. I would be *pithed if someone stole 4 acres of trees. You said you had markers and after logging they were gone. Its just my opinion, but I believe an honest logger doesn't make the mistake of cutting over property lines. We aren't talking a few feet in. You said 100.  I have heard the tree value for trees cut over property lines to be valued 3x the actual value. I don't know this for a fact but I imagine it is a way of keeping loggers honest. If they only had to pay the actual value , whats the punishment.
Definitely talk to your forester . He should know the laws or have an idea of what you can do. If he thinks you have a case, then get a lawyer or file a case yourself in small claims. Good luck and I hope you get this resolved

[beenthere]

Am thinking you should first discuss with your neighbor and hopefully walk your line together. Then ask if he will go with you to sit down face to face with the logger.
Find out then if the logger paid your neighbor for your wood, or kept it himself.
Estimate a value ahead of time, and put it out on the table. If it something like $5000, then suggest they come to an agreement who will pay you for your timber, so you don't have to take it further to small claims court. One or the other was paid for it, and the logger is the one who knows who it was.

Hopefully that will keep your neighbor friendly with you, and the logger has a graceful way out.

[ncguy444]

Walking the line with the owner probaly won't work because he lives in michigan about 18 hours away drive time. His family originally owned the property for many years and payed for the original survey. I talked to him a few years back and he seemed like a nice guy. I left a message for him to call about the time of the logging took place and he never returned my message. I know this is not a legal forum but is it not the responsibility of the logger to know where the lines are?? He has access to the parcel maps and the county GIS just like everyone else. I ain't no logger but I knew he was over just by the way my property borders the other parcels and how things did not match up. This was without the GIS individual parcel boundry lines. I could not tell until a few weeks ago he encroached because the old aerial image was being utilized. There is a way he could have screwed up though. There is a pin close to the area where he cut but on the survey you can see there is another pin about 130 feet more to the north. This is the area in question. I tend to give people the benefit of doubt but I find it hard to comprehend this could be an honest mistake or could it. Even if it is does he not have insurance to cover his butt? All I want is fair compensation and maybe a few extra bucks for my time, gate, survey. I would be willing to let the road damage slide. I really don't want to get the law involved because of my beliefs. Take care all and once again thanks...

[WDH]

It is not your responsibility that the logger cut over the line.  You are entitled to compensation.  Generally, you can expect the value of the timber cut and some level of penalty.  Three times the value is what I have usually seen awarded.  However, you must be able to present a case as to the value of the timber taken.  A judge will not accept a ball park estimate.  You need to cruise the stumps left from the logging.  A Forester can do this for you and based on the other trees on your property, the Forester can estimate the amount of timber taken and develop a fair market value of the timber.  If that is professionally calculated and presented to the logger, and he refuses to pay, then that information will be critical to present to a judge if you have to go to court.

You have to calculate the value to the timber removed no matter what course of action that you take unless you decide to drop it.  This has to be the first step in developing your case for value.  You may be able to re-coup the cost of hiring the forester to do the cruise as an unavoidable cost that the court will recognize in the settlement.  Even if you retain a lawyer, you have to have a cruise to determine the fair market value of the loss, and I never knew a lawyer that could cruise timber.

One other thing that you should do is discuss the survey with the adjoining landowner to make sure that there is not a dispute over the true property line.  If there is a dispute over the property line, that makes this situation even more complex.

[ncguy444]

There should be no discrepancy  in the survey because I hired the company that did the original survey to find the pins. I researched the forum before i posted and did read about hiring a forester to do a stump survey but was looking for a way around it. I was just thinking if I could get an approximate cost without the help of a forester both the logger and I could avoid additional costs. You guys are very helpful and I am very appreciative

[WDH]

If it becomes a legal matter, the cruise is a necessity.  However, you could decide what would satisfy you and present that to the logger as a starting point.

[ncguy444]

WHD.. thats what I want to do. What would you say is a fair offer to not take this to court? Do you or any other member of this forum have a number they would think was somewhat close as price per acre X 4 plus a small premium for the things mentioned previously. I have no clue what this type of hardwood sold for over a year ago. If it is not appropriate to do so I understand.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what WDH advised. You need the services of a "local" professional consulting forester to complete an "all resources" damage assessment to your forest land including the timber values removed, gate damage, road damage, aesthetics, soil, loss of resale value, removal of the survey stakes, etc. Removal of survey stakes is usually a violation of state law. How you approach this for restitution depends upon your concerns for how you have been wronged and restitution being ignored by the parties involved.

The landowner is responsible for there boundary lines when having their timber harvested, so you may also have a case against the logger and your neighbor. The logger may also have a case against your neighbor depending upon what information he gave to the logger concerning the boundary line. Your case could get quite complex and attorneys may be necessary by all parties as the worst case scenerio.

I have been involved in such cases. One is still going on after several years with the logger still suing the landowner who had the timber harvested and showed the logger the incorrect property boundary line.

[WDH]

WHD.. thats what I want to do. What would you say is a fair offer to not take this to court? Do you or any other member of this forum have a number they would think was somewhat close as price per acre X 4 plus a small premium for the things mentioned previously. I have no clue what this type of hardwood sold for over a year ago. If it is not appropriate to do so I understand.

There are too many variables.. Was all the timber pulpwood?  Probably not.  If it was grade logs, were they pallet quality or sawlog quality?  Many species like red maple, sweetgum, blackgum, hickory, low grade oaks, and beech in your area are pallet logs.  There is just no way to guess unless someone can survey the situation on the ground.  Ask the logger to make you an offer of restitution, and that can become a starting point for a reasonable comparison of potential fair market values.

[DanG]

Besides all that, there are still the questions of whether the logger paid the neighbor for your trees, and perhaps most importantly, whether you would ever get paid even if you won the case.  The latter question could get real iffy if the logger were found at fault, as most of them are already scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Do you know if the logger is even still in business?

[red oaks lumber]

if the logger is at fault, he must be held accountable. thru legal action it will be on his record, stopping him from doing this to other landowners.
with gps these days isn't it pretty easy to find property lines?

[thompsontimber]

Most of the advice you have been given so far is right on target, but I might be able to add in a few points.  Settling with the logger in the manner you are hoping for is a good approach as far as keeping the peace and everyone leaving the situation on good terms.  However, that approach could also leave you way on the short end.  Based on your description, it sounds like you want to give the logger every benefit of the doubt, but there is rarely a "good" excuse for cutting over several acres, destroying property pins and gates, and leaving a helping landowner with a rutted road after a harvest operation.  Such actions give the entire industry a black eye and you shouldn't feel as if you have to accept such conditions in order to be neighborly.  The first thing I'd attempt to establish is whether the overcut was intentional or not...were the boundaries marked, how were they marked, and who marked them.  In NC there is a deferentiation between timber trespass and timber theft.  Like others have stated, it makes a difference if the adjoining landowner was paid for your wood or not and whether there was intent or simple negligence.  Criminal charges are also in order, so it would certainly be in the logger's best interest to settle with you without you taking legal action.  Don't short change yourself.  A stump tally cruise is certainly in order to assess the fair market timber value.  Before you fear a useless legal judgement in court due to the broken state of the logging industry, you should also know that most of the large mills in North Carolina require their suppliers to have General Liability insurance of at least 1 million that covers both property damages (like your gate and road) and accidental overcuts of property boundaries.  The logger in question may not have such insurance, but any reputable companies in NC doing business on any scale have it.  I'm also gonna post a state statute on the matter for you.

[thompsontimber]

Here are the North Carolina statutes regarding such overcuts, including the awards and covered costs:

§ 1 539.1.  Damages for unlawful cutting, removal or burning of timber; misrepresentation of property lines.
(a)       Any person, firm or corporation not being the bona fide owner thereof or agent of the owner who shall without the consent and  permission of the bona fide owner enter upon the land of another and injure, cut or remove any valuable wood, timber, shrub or tree therefrom, shall be liable to the owner of said land for double the value of such wood, timber, shrubs or trees so injured, cut or removed.
(b)       If any person, firm or corporation shall willfully and intentionally set on fire, or cause to be set on fire, in any manner whatever, any valuable wood, timber or trees on the lands of another, such person, firm or corporation shall be liable to the owner of said lands for double the value of such wood, timber or trees damaged or destroyed thereby.
(c)       Any person, firm or corporation cutting timber under contract and incurring damages as provided in subsection (a) of this section as a result of a misrepresentation of property lines by the party letting the contract shall be entitled to reimbursement from the party letting the contract for damages incurred. (1945, c. 837; 1955, c. 594; 1971, c. 119; 1977, c. 859.)

Hope this helps shed some light on your path to a remedy.

[ncguy444]

Thank you all .... You have helped me alot and I appreciate all the advise. Guess I will be hiring a forester in the near future. In all honesty the timber theft ain't what bothered me. It is the destuction of part of my hardwoods that I wanted to keep intact for myself and my child. I have pines that I am harvesting in the future for revenue. Another thing that bothered me is the fact the property line now looks like it is where the timber has been cut at.

[Haytrader]

If you don't make him pay, he has gotten away with stealing.
If he is knoledeable about his profession, he knew where the line was.
My gut feeling is that the pins disappeared for a reason.
He needs to be made to pay the penalty as some of these guys have suggested or else he will continue to cross property lines for his benefit. He may anyway.
You are being to easy on him to not get the road fixed. You have a contract so that would be easy for the judge. Pictures of the ruts would be in order.
You asked for advice and got it from some if not the best advice givers around, now use it.

[Raider Bill]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet but time maybe  against you here. In many states there is a set period in which you must file a claim with the court. It's 2 years here in Florida. I don't know what North Carolina's is.

[metalspinner]

I've noticed in all stories like this that loggers never seem to undercut a track of land.   :-\

Or maybe it's just that nobody is complaining about it.

Another thing that bothered me is the fact the property line now looks like it is where the timber has been cut at.

You will need to keep a special eye on that should your neighbor get a surveyor out there. 

Also, any correspondance with the absentee landowner should be sent certified returned receipt through the post office.  Just to make sure he cannot deny having received the info.

[thompsontimber]

The statute of limitations on the timber trespass damages is 3 years in North Carolina, but the courts have set precedents where the 3 years actually applies to when the damage is discovered rather than when it occurred.  That would be argued in court though, so its imperative that you take legal action as soon as possible if you are going that route.

[thompsontimber]

This timber theft issue brings forth one of the topics that is of upmost concern for most landowners looking to market their timber.  Its a shame that it is so difficult to protect your rights in most places when it comes to having your trees harvested without your permission.  It would be nice if more states followed the lead of South Carolina, which takes timber theft very seriously.  We probably do 60% of our work in SC, the other 40% in NC.  In SC, there are actual timber theft enforcement agents within the state Forestry Commission that will come out and investigate claims of timber theft.  Thefts of under $1000 are a misdemeanor and can be accompanied with 30 days in jail, whereas over $1000 in value are felonies and can land a thief in prison for up to 5 years.  If the value of timber stolen is over $5000, the thief is hit with fines and up to 10 years in prison.  Additionally, the state law also allows for the seizure of the equipment used to steal the timber, and if found guilty the equipment sold at public auction.  Add to that one more nice stab against timber theft, the state forestry commission website actually publishes the pics of convicted timber theives on their website for all to see!  Timber theft is serious theft and its nice to see a state take it as seriously as SC (not that any theft is anything other than serious)

[01crewcab]

As others have posted it is 3 times the stump value at least here in Washington State. You need a lawyer and timber cruiser ;)

[ely]

it will be interesting to see how all this turns out.
next door to my dads place is his sisters place. 70 acres m/l  . inside the tract lies 10 acres of what we call indian land. this land is owned by indian families from back when it was alloted to them. my kinfolks had their land logged about 10 years ago, pine only. the logger that came in took the time to flag out very conspicuously the 10 acres that was off limits.

this month they had the loggers come in and start on the land again. i went over this past weekend and seen what they have done. the ten acres have been cut over the same as the rest of the property. no flags of any sort at all.

i know for a fact that any platt book shows the indian land plain as day. not sure who is at fault on this but i do know the choctaws take this sort of thing serious and they also have top notch lawyers and deep pockets. :P

[barbender]

I like the south carolina model for timber theft enforcement- that's gotta be a good deterrent.

[thompsontimber]

I don't know how a lot of other states handle timber theft and trespass, though it seems the majority have a simple a trespass law that may or may not take intent into consideration, award double or triple stumpage, etc.  I am quite familiar with the Carolinas though, and without question I believe SC does a far superior job in making resources and information available to landowners and in helping landowners acquire the evidence to take their cases forward if they suspect timber theft.  Having worked with many logging firms and forestry professionals in SC, I do believe the statutes and enforcement efforts are effective as a deterrent.  There will undoubtably always be crooks, but it does help when there are laws in place and resources available to give those laws teeth. I would love to see a similar approach in NC.  I did make an inaccurate statement in an earlier post, stating that those convicted of timber theft had their pics published.  In fact, those arrested for timber theft have their pics published, as you can see in the last link. For those interested in the SC model, here are a few links.

Timber theft and fraud info  http://www.state.sc.us/forest/letheft.htm
SC Timber Statutes             http://www.state.sc.us/forest/lestat.htm
Accused of timber theft       http://www.state.sc.us/forest/b090309.htm

[ncguy444]

Once again thanks all.. Talked to a friend of mine who is a forester and this is what I think I am going to do.  Write a letter to the logger telling him I want $2,000 an acre for timber taken, $350 to replace the access gate the $560 I paid the surveyor to come out and find the pins. I figure the fair value of the timber was around $1,000 an acre times two. This is what is automatically awarded for timber trespass. You are awarded three times the value if you can claim it was malicious.

[mrnero]

Once again thanks all.. Talked to a friend of mine who is a forester and this is what I think I am going to do.  Write a letter to the logger telling him I want $2,000 an acre for timber taken, $350 to replace the access gate the $560 I paid the surveyor to come out and find the pins. I figure the fair value of the timber was around $1,000 an acre times two. This is what is automatically awarded for timber trespass. You are awarded three times the value if you can claim it was malicious.

That seems fair (e.g. $8,000 to $10,000 in damages). What happens if he don't except your offer??  Will you be bring an action against him?? You are in one of those situation as most of us refer to as a"no win win situation". Most trial attorney's will cost you about $8,000 - $10,000 alone and maybe even more, just to try your case.
Then it will up to the jury to award you a dollar value for what they feel is fair compensation of your loss in damages . If he comes back to you with a counter offer, I would suggest you except his offer and just bite the bullet.

[pappy19]

All the above is good advice. I have been involved in 4 timber trespass cases over the years here in Idaho. Two of them were small cases of cutting just over a property line but the logger (same one in both cases) took some very nice trees. The trees cut illegally were of power pole class and were very high value. I got tripple stumpage as per the Idaho timber trespass law. Logger was very *pithed, but the property boundary line was plainly marked and he just thought no one would catch him.

The other 2 cases were plain and simple illegal trespass and the loggers cut almost 25 acres of an adjacent property owner. Both cases involved an absentee landowner. I really believe that the logger checked at the county courthouse and found out that the address of the adjacent landowner was out-of-state, so he just cut that landowner's timber too. We did some checking at various mills and found out who cut the timber. Gathered our information, hired an attorney, and made the complaint to the district court. The logger got a summons and it went to court. All of the evidence was presented and the logger lost. The entire verdict cost wise allowed a lien on his equipment, residence, and money owed him at mills. We eventually collected, but it was a PITA. Best advice is to make sure your land boundary is clearly marked and NO Trespassing, No Timber Cutting, No Whatever, signs are placed where they can't be readily removed. Good Luck on your collecting.

[ncguy444]

He is obviously in the wrong and if it comes to that I hope to God you are awarded legal fees.

[James P.]

hello, not sure of the forestry service in your area but, recently I had to get a permit to clear my land. I was told that any clearing over an acre even for reforestation had to be issued a permit. I went down to the foresters office and had to fill out paper work specifying acreage . Did your logger get these permits or are they not required ?

[WDH]

Some places like down here are still backward because you don't have to get a permit to manage your land  ;).  At least not yet.  Pretty soon the only thing that you will not need a permit for is living in a subdivision on a little bitty plot of land  :-\. 

[James P.]

you know, progress isn't always whats best. However , the foresters I imagine are the folks who came up with the idea and I assume it is to protect the land. although I have yet to see  him in  person. When I tell people this they do seem surprised. I wasn't bothered by it cause it was given without any issues. Another thing just to mention for my state. They have a seed law. If the property contains a certain % of loblolly or poplar it must be replanted with the same. I think it was 33%.

[WDH]

Nope, not the Foresters, it is the planning and zoning politicians that want to control what others can do with their land.  In some places, you cannot clearcut your forest because the P&Z politicians don't like the way it looks. 

[James P.]

well that would make Georgia forwards and Delaware backwards, I didn't say that All joking aside its that kind of policy makes me wonder . Its scary to read all the planning and zoning rules. I once looked at a guy who wanted to put a woodworking shop on his property. We have no outside storage laws so he was required to get a semi trailer for lumber storage if not going to keep it inside his shop. I guess they figure it is no big deal to fork out a fortune to make a modest living. I have yet to even attemp to build myself a little cottage do to the laws. My feeling is they can just say it can't be sold , but for me to have to spend a fortune to build according to code doesn't make much sense to me. Now I could go live in a cardboard box and nobody would notice. Controlling every aspect. Yes we are free to live by the rules.I will leave it at that or will end up in the woodshed or worse the woodstove :D

[ncguy444]

James P... I don't think you need permits to clearcut in NC but I really don't know what permits the logger took out. I do know you have to get a burn permit because we had to get one to clean up some of his mess.

[James P.]

well I personally would ask without mentioning your cut. If they say yes and the logger had to get one there may be some paper trail for you. may not. Funny here in Delaware you call and say , hello I will be burning today and give address and phone # and your good to good.

[fishpharmer]

James P. that's how they handle burn permits in MS too.  Maybe we aren't so backward ;)

ncguy444, did you take pictures of his mess before burning?

[ncguy444]

fishpharmer, I really ain't worried about the mess he made because I did give him permission to use my access road just to be neighborly. When using my access road he staged his logging operation on my property to ready the trees to be trucked out on the adjoining properties as well as mine. Therefore I had about a 5 foot thick matt of brush about an acre big in two areas. One of the two areas I needed to clean up for access reasons. The other pile I left as is for wildlife cover.

[thompsontimber]

ncguy, glad to hear you have contacted a forester and decided on a course of action.  Wish you the best with it and the law is certainly on your side.  Just to clarify for James P, no, permits are not required for harvesting timber in NC, so there wouldn't be a permit issue.  Sure hope we can keep those planning and zoning politicians under control!  They are sure doing their best to take control here as well.  Before long we will have to get approval from a board and be issued a permit for each trip to the restroom.

[ncguy444]

thompsontimber, I actually bought the land from the forester I got the info from. Him and I are friends but I hate bothering people all the time because time is money for them. I posted here first for information this weekend before I contacted him on monday and the folks on this forum have been great. Between the people here and my friend the forester I feel relatively enlightened about the situation. I hate to say it and am sure you might agree but the days of light regulation and low taxes especially in NC may be coming to an end. The state and local goverments keep wanting more power and the way they get power is to tax and regulate. The vast majority of the people who move to the Southeast are from states when the norm is to have repressive governments at both the state and local level. NC is one of the fastest growing states in the USA and the population projections up to 2030 show no end in sight. Go to a web site called  http://www.city-data.com/forum and go to the NC forums. Everybody and their brother thinks it is the land of milk and honey. Luckily counties in the east and to the south bordering SC will have slow or negative growth mostly due to the lack of economic activity. The snakes, chiggers, skeeters, ticks, red ants, bears, hurricanes and the heat and humitity help to keep alot of people out of the still mostly undeveloped coastal plane. I also own some land in Orangeburg county SC and get the feeling that area will be rural for a long time. Orangeburg county is a place where time stands still. Boeing just announced relocation of some jet production to Charlestown which is about 60 miles away but there is so much undeveloped around the whole area that I don't see much change for at least 30-50 years. My minor in college was economics and my hobby is demograhics. Take care all

[ely]

i learned this morning here in okla. that when a logger starts a new tract of timber he has to submit a legal description to the mill that he hauls to.

[timberfaller390]

there are alot of places in the south where time stands still, like the Dark Corners for instance. Thats where Ga. North and South Carolina all come together.

[WDH]

Timberfaller,

That dark corner is where I go trout fishing every spring!  Not a whole lot of timber cutting there as most of it is National Forest.

[thompsontimber]

ncguy, I'm all too aware of the situation you are speaking of in NC.  I live in the western part of the state in Rutherford County, which has been inexplicably pushing out every industry over the past 10 years and attempting in every way to turn the area into a "retirement community."  Quite an influx of yankees and half-backers with plenty of money and even more arrogance, which has led to a surge in special interest groups pushing the politics of the community.  There has been a lot of attention given to zoning in the past few years, which we still don't have here but its all around in the surrounding areas.  Lots of backlash against such proposals, and it keeps getting voted down by a landslide every time it comes up...yet the county has already "zoned" all the properties and is simply awaiting the day it finally becomes official.  No doubt it will in time.  Fortunately, when it comes to forest management, both of the Carolinas have done a good job of keeping laws on the books preventing community zoning and permit regulations from being imposed on bonafide forest management work, treating forest landowners and their timber like agriculture.  That doesn't stop communities from creating laws forbidding clearcuts and such, but the state laws supercede such local ordinaces when they do pop up on occassion.  I totally concur with your observations on the rural lowlands of SC...one of the few areas you can still manage to buy land that can pay for itself with the timber if you look hard enough.  When I was working with a land and timber company in SC a few years ago, we sold 40 acres after clearing all the timber in the Campobello area of SC, where there are lots of the "horse folks," and bought 360 acres forested land with the money down state.  Better land, excellent timber, just located in the rural backcountry that seems stuck in time with no signs of development or population growth.

[timberfaller390]

Timberfaller,

That dark corner is where I go trout fishing every spring!  Not a whole lot of timber cutting there as most of it is National Forest.

I have fished the area alot myself. Warwoman and burrell's ford were all family land in the 1800's, I still go to the reunion there every year. When you head up this spring give me some warning and I'll try to meet you and Dodgy in Clayton.

[WDH]

Timberfaller, you bet.  Maybe we could play some music. 

I especially love the West Fork of the Chattooga River, hiking in from John Teague Gap, or continuing on up Overflow Creek Road till it ends about nine miles up where Overflow Creek crosses the road through a huge culvert pipe, then hiking on the old closed logging road to the East, and pitching off the mountain down to the junction of Clear Creek and Overflow Creek, then fishing back upstream to the huge culvert pipe.  Neither the West Fork of the Chattooga via John Teague Gap or the Clear Creek/Overflow Creek trip are for the faint of heart.  The gorge just downstream of Three Forks is really something to experience.  That is some super rugged country.





Sorry for hijacking the thread.  Now back to cutting over the line/stealing timber 

[timberfaller390]

Yeah sounds like a good time to set around the fire and do a little pickin'. I'll be sure to bring my fiddle smiley_fiddler