iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Logger took about 4 acres of 80 year old hardwoods without permission.

Started by ncguy444, October 31, 2009, 03:59:52 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ncguy444

Hi there.. first time poster but long term lurker. I have some land in eastern North Carolina which is half plantation pine  and the other half 75-85 year old mixed harwoods. Situation is I had a logger come and thin out my 18 year old plantation pines and take out about 3.5 acres of mature pines. There is another landowner  to the side of me that was logged by the same time as mine by the same logger except he had all his hardwoods clearcut in the back half of his property that bordered mine. I told the logger I wanted to keep my hardwoods in place and was not interested in selling them because I like the beauty and solitude they provide. I let the logger use my road to access the other tracks that were not mine. It stated in the contract he had to leave the road in as good or better shape then when he started. He did not do this as the road which is about half mile long was all rutted out. He also totally destroyed my access gate and knocked over some property pins that were clearely marked with ribbon. He said he would fix the gate and find the pins but never did (I never really pursued it though). That is not what I am really inquiring about though. Where my hardwoods bordered with my neighbor. The one who clearcut his the logger encroached about 100-110 feet in for about 1,600 feet which is about 3.86 acres.  I was working on the property this summer and it looked like he encroached but I was unable to find the pins. I did an arial at the county web-site and it was very clear. I recently hired a surveyer to find my pins and to give me an estimate of the area effected which is where I got the 3.86 acres. Here is the deal.. I don't want to sue this guy because I hate burning bridges and I want to give him a chance to make it right without using the legal system. The logger originally paid me $3.00 a ton for pulpwood and I got about 3,000 for about 3.5 to 4 acres of mature pines that was in a small patch in the middle of my property. I kind of thought this was a little low and it was about a year and a half ago when prices were much higher. I would appreciate some honest opinions as to  what do you feel is a fair amount to ask the logger for the 4 acres of 80 year year old hardwood timber he cut without my authorization? Thanks

timberfaller390

If it has been a year and a half ago and you haven't filed any kind of claim or report before now then you may be up the creek without a paddle.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

ncguy444

I have not been to my property since he logged until this summer. This is when i first thought that it looked like he encroached. It was not until the new arial surveys from the county came out that I first knew for a fact this happened. This is when I hired the surveyor who gave me the information a couple days ago. I thought that it was a year or two upon discovery. I just found out.  thanks

timberfaller390

Ah, I understand now. As I have said in othr topics similar to this one, We are a bunch of loggers, sawmillers and foresters not lawyers, you need a lawyer. You can try to reason with the guy but if he won't listen to reason then you have no other recourse but to file suit. Get ahold of a copy of the Hardwood Market Report and find out what your particular species of hardwoods were worth on the stump at the time of cutting. Then get a forester to help you come up with a fair guess as to how much timber was actually taken. Once you have this information in hand contact the logger and if he is honest and didn't know the boundries then you shouldn't have any trouble. If however he is not going to make things easy on you  (which from what you have said I don't think he will) then your two options are to either eat the loss for the timber or get a lawyer and work it out in court.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

ncguy444

Thanks timberfaller for you input. Without having to go to all the expense of getting the timber professionally appraised  do you or any other members have a number you can throw at me which you would consider fair price with the information I initially gave. I know you all ain't lawyers and neither am I . I am just a landowner of a few pieces of timberland looking not for legal advise just a hypothetical if you were in my shoes. I know ther are alot of what ifs but I try to live life under the KISS theory(keep it simple stupid).

timberfaller390

Without some more info such as size and approx. number of trees it is almost impossible to say.
Situation 1. All trees are straight and clear. 3 acres of this kind of timber could be worth quiet a bit.

Situation 2. Some trees were good some were not. This type of stand is still worth quiet a bit but not as much as if everything was choice.

Situation 3. All trees are crooked, knotty and only fit for pulpwood. these trees wouldn't be worth anywhere near what the trees in the first 2 situations would be.

I know you are wanting a dollar figure but I don't think any of us would be able to come close to putting a value on timber that we have never seen. Maybe if you can come up with some more info and maybe some pictures we can be more help.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

Hilltop366

I wonder if your logger payed the other land owner for your trees, if he honestly thought they were part of the other lot he should have, That might make a third party in this matter.

Something else to consider.

ncguy444

I did think about that... this gets more interesting. Also ,I have a ton of pictures but can't get them to post.  It is really a general mix of coastal plane hardwoods. Alot of oak, maple, etc. with the age around 80 years old.

Chico

Also if you were thinking of building a home there the trees are worth more in some states for astechtic (sp)value
My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

ncguy444

Thats what i was thinking plus i got alot of critters back there like bears and bobcats. Lots of snakes too.  The surveyor a couple days ago almost got bit by a timber rattler. Did not see it and it did not rattle because it was digesting a big rat or something. Surveyor said he got to within 4 foot of it and killed it with a brush machete. He was shaking the rattle while he talked to me. Crazy thing is when the cleared the front part for the planted pine one of the loggers got bit by another timber rattler. Good thing snakes don't bother me.

ncguy444

Is there a way to post jpeg images from my pictures or do i have to something confusing.

red oaks lumber

i see a few things wrong here
1) were the boundries clearly marked? if not both the logger and landowner are at fault.
2)was the sale setup by a forester? if so, contact the forester, if not, logger and landowner are at fault.
3) what bridges don't you want burned? peace with your neibor?he should know his property lines, maybe did,  pocketed the money .
my opinion, call a lawyer, let him guide you.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

beenthere

Quote from: ncguy444 on October 31, 2009, 06:47:35 PM
Is there a way to post jpeg images from my pictures or do i have to something confusing.

Easy to post pics. Set up your own gallery, and click on the Java Uploader below this blue window. If you don't have Java, then download it free.

Go to the "Behind the Forum" on the Home page, and there you will find the thread on posting, for Mac users too.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ncguy444

Here are some pictures. In he ones that show the clear cut if you look really close there is a lone tree in the distance that is the actual property line. What do you think of the timber?? By the way thanks for all the help!




















James P.

hello and sorry to hear about your experience. I only own 8 1/2 acres and nothing close to 80 year old hardwoods. I am clearing my land for replanting. Even though its mostly junk. I would be *pithed if someone stole 4 acres of trees. You said you had markers and after logging they were gone. Its just my opinion, but I believe an honest logger doesn't make the mistake of cutting over property lines. We aren't talking a few feet in. You said 100.  I have heard the tree value for trees cut over property lines to be valued 3x the actual value. I don't know this for a fact but I imagine it is a way of keeping loggers honest. If they only had to pay the actual value , whats the punishment.
Definitely talk to your forester . He should know the laws or have an idea of what you can do. If he thinks you have a case, then get a lawyer or file a case yourself in small claims. Good luck and I hope you get this resolved

beenthere

Am thinking you should first discuss with your neighbor and hopefully walk your line together. Then ask if he will go with you to sit down face to face with the logger.
Find out then if the logger paid your neighbor for your wood, or kept it himself.
Estimate a value ahead of time, and put it out on the table. If it something like $5000, then suggest they come to an agreement who will pay you for your timber, so you don't have to take it further to small claims court. One or the other was paid for it, and the logger is the one who knows who it was.

Hopefully that will keep your neighbor friendly with you, and the logger has a graceful way out.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ncguy444

Walking the line with the owner probaly won't work because he lives in michigan about 18 hours away drive time. His family originally owned the property for many years and payed for the original survey. I talked to him a few years back and he seemed like a nice guy. I left a message for him to call about the time of the logging took place and he never returned my message. I know this is not a legal forum but is it not the responsibility of the logger to know where the lines are?? He has access to the parcel maps and the county GIS just like everyone else. I ain't no logger but I knew he was over just by the way my property borders the other parcels and how things did not match up. This was without the GIS individual parcel boundry lines. I could not tell until a few weeks ago he encroached because the old aerial image was being utilized. There is a way he could have screwed up though. There is a pin close to the area where he cut but on the survey you can see there is another pin about 130 feet more to the north. This is the area in question. I tend to give people the benefit of doubt but I find it hard to comprehend this could be an honest mistake or could it. Even if it is does he not have insurance to cover his butt? All I want is fair compensation and maybe a few extra bucks for my time, gate, survey. I would be willing to let the road damage slide. I really don't want to get the law involved because of my beliefs. Take care all and once again thanks...

WDH

It is not your responsibility that the logger cut over the line.  You are entitled to compensation.  Generally, you can expect the value of the timber cut and some level of penalty.  Three times the value is what I have usually seen awarded.  However, you must be able to present a case as to the value of the timber taken.  A judge will not accept a ball park estimate.  You need to cruise the stumps left from the logging.  A Forester can do this for you and based on the other trees on your property, the Forester can estimate the amount of timber taken and develop a fair market value of the timber.  If that is professionally calculated and presented to the logger, and he refuses to pay, then that information will be critical to present to a judge if you have to go to court.

You have to calculate the value to the timber removed no matter what course of action that you take unless you decide to drop it.  This has to be the first step in developing your case for value.  You may be able to re-coup the cost of hiring the forester to do the cruise as an unavoidable cost that the court will recognize in the settlement.  Even if you retain a lawyer, you have to have a cruise to determine the fair market value of the loss, and I never knew a lawyer that could cruise timber.

One other thing that you should do is discuss the survey with the adjoining landowner to make sure that there is not a dispute over the true property line.  If there is a dispute over the property line, that makes this situation even more complex.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ncguy444

There should be no discrepancy  in the survey because I hired the company that did the original survey to find the pins. I researched the forum before i posted and did read about hiring a forester to do a stump survey but was looking for a way around it. I was just thinking if I could get an approximate cost without the help of a forester both the logger and I could avoid additional costs. You guys are very helpful and I am very appreciative

WDH

If it becomes a legal matter, the cruise is a necessity.  However, you could decide what would satisfy you and present that to the logger as a starting point.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ncguy444

WHD.. thats what I want to do. What would you say is a fair offer to not take this to court? Do you or any other member of this forum have a number they would think was somewhat close as price per acre X 4 plus a small premium for the things mentioned previously. I have no clue what this type of hardwood sold for over a year ago. If it is not appropriate to do so I understand.

Ron Scott

Ditto! to what WDH advised. You need the services of a "local" professional consulting forester to complete an "all resources" damage assessment to your forest land including the timber values removed, gate damage, road damage, aesthetics, soil, loss of resale value, removal of the survey stakes, etc. Removal of survey stakes is usually a violation of state law. How you approach this for restitution depends upon your concerns for how you have been wronged and restitution being ignored by the parties involved.

The landowner is responsible for there boundary lines when having their timber harvested, so you may also have a case against the logger and your neighbor. The logger may also have a case against your neighbor depending upon what information he gave to the logger concerning the boundary line. Your case could get quite complex and attorneys may be necessary by all parties as the worst case scenerio.

I have been involved in such cases. One is still going on after several years with the logger still suing the landowner who had the timber harvested and showed the logger the incorrect property boundary line.

~Ron

WDH

Quote from: ncguy444 on October 31, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
WHD.. thats what I want to do. What would you say is a fair offer to not take this to court? Do you or any other member of this forum have a number they would think was somewhat close as price per acre X 4 plus a small premium for the things mentioned previously. I have no clue what this type of hardwood sold for over a year ago. If it is not appropriate to do so I understand.

There are too many variables.. Was all the timber pulpwood?  Probably not.  If it was grade logs, were they pallet quality or sawlog quality?  Many species like red maple, sweetgum, blackgum, hickory, low grade oaks, and beech in your area are pallet logs.  There is just no way to guess unless someone can survey the situation on the ground.  Ask the logger to make you an offer of restitution, and that can become a starting point for a reasonable comparison of potential fair market values.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

DanG

Besides all that, there are still the questions of whether the logger paid the neighbor for your trees, and perhaps most importantly, whether you would ever get paid even if you won the case.  The latter question could get real iffy if the logger were found at fault, as most of them are already scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Do you know if the logger is even still in business?
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

red oaks lumber

if the logger is at fault, he must be held accountable. thru legal action it will be on his record, stopping him from doing this to other landowners.
with gps these days isn't it pretty easy to find property lines?
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Thank You Sponsors!