Equipment repair issues!

[thompsontimber]

Today I have to go to Charlotte to deal with some folks I perceive to be crooks over at James River Equipment.  Perhaps I'm offbase in my views, but I can't for the life of me figure out how their actions are ethical.  My real question is whether they are legal, and I'm hoping some folks might help shed some light on the issue for me.  Back in July we had an 848JD skidder catch fire due to an electrical short.  We got the fire out quickly and there wasn't any structural damage to the machine, but it burned up a lot of wiring and hoses.  In the process of shopping for another machine, we visiting James River Equipment and shopped their inventory.  While there, we shared our skidder loss story and they were nice enough to offer to ride out to our job and take a look at the burnt skidder and figure what it might cost to repair it.  At the time we had not decided whether we were gonna fix the machine or trade it in, and whether we were going to deal with James River at all. They offered the estimate free of charge and we thought that was quite generous of them, and needing an idea of the repair cost, welcomed it.  They did come look at it and we were pleasantly surprised when they gave an estimate of $7500 for repair.  We had anticipated that a dealership repair would approach 15K easily just based on their inflated labor and parts markups.  The man said that there mey be a couple of control modules he couldn't access till he got the machine in the shop to assess if they were bad or not, so there was a potential for an additional 1500 worth he couldn't assess in the field.  That gave us a range of 7500 to 9000.  We decided we couldn't afford not to fix the machine for that, so we took it to Charlotte.  In late August they called and said their was an additional wiring harness costing $1600 that needed to be replaced and were asking for authorization.  We approved that additional repair and heard nothing else from them.  They called and said our machine was ready and we need to discuss the bill.

[thompsontimber]

Last posting must have gotten too long, was acting screwy so I'll continue here and try to keep it brief.  When we got to Charlotte to see the machine and discuss the bill, the bill was for 24K!  They showed us their written estimate with a number of 8000, so no denial on their part of the original estimate.  We never authorized any repairs approaching such a number.  After much dissatisifaction showed, they "cut" labor costs and got our bill down around 19K.  The still have us billed sales tax that we are exempt from, so that should come off.  They also have us billed $522 for that "free" estimate that guranteed them no work and was off by 16K.  They have us billed for over $800 for moving the machine from our truck to inside their shop.  My question is, are their actions legal and do I have any legal recourse.  I haven't been able to find much pertaining to estimate laws regarding heavy equipment.  I have found car repair laws requiring mechanic shops to stay within 10% of estimates and get authorization for further repairs.  However, those laws don't pertain to agricultural equipment or machinery weighing over 26000 lbs.  Do we have any legal avenues or are we stuck begging them to give us their labor cut (so sweet of them) and pay them 18K+....Needless to say, I'm frustrated.  Bout to head that way now and learn the latest from their side.

[Mr Mom]

first get rid of the free estamit fee they said it was free.
No body said that it was going to cast $800 to unload the equipment get rid of that.
Get rid of taxes beacuse your tax exzemt(sp).
If all fails get a lawyer.
Or eat cost never use them again. Dont bad mouth about them if someone ask just tell the truth.
Just my two cents.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[DanG]

Boy that sure sounds out of kilter to me.  I would go ahead and negotiate with them to get it down as much as possible, but I'd be thinking of hiring a good lawyer.  It seems to me that the written estimate is a contract, and you shouldn't need a special consumer protection law to enforce a contract.  Did you ask them why it took 3 months to replace a wiring harness?  Did they have to mine the copper or something? :

[beenthere]

Sorry to hear that. I'd at least be talking to a lawyer, and have your side of this well documented on paper with copies. And send the written documentation to the shop, with obvious copies to the lawyer and the State office of consumer affairs (if there is something along that line). But paper trail is most important. Not emails, not phone calls, but paper.

That limitation on length of posts crops up often, and only find it gets screwy when the posts get just so long. However, not all the time and apparently not for everyone. Maybe Internet Explorer (I have ver 7, and refuse to download ver. 8).

[mike_van]

Could they show you where or why it went from 9 thousand to 24 ? 

[tughill]

You need to call your lawyer now, not be asking us hillbillies! :D

If you don't have a lawyer...dunno, how can you do anything in life without one...there are a few good ones out there...

[thompsontimber]

Well the day didn't go so well, but at least it went.  Yes tughill, I suppose calling a lawyer rather than seeking advice from the hillbillies would be the wise move.  However, being one of the hillbillies and in the timber business no less, I figure I might as well vent and seek advice from my peers as there sure ain't no money for lawyers.  If you aren't injured in an accident or suing for medical malpractice or drug related liability, it seems every lawyer around here costs a small fortune just for a few minutes of their time in which they provide no real advice or help.  As much as I'd like to fight sometimes on principal, it seems all we get out of it is spending a dollar to save a nickel, and when dollars are in short supply it just makes it that much harder to hire that lawyer. If its not an absolute win situation, we can't take on the risk.  But enough of the belly aching on that front...as for the meeting, the service manager and I certainly did not see eye to eye and I didn't leave him guessing about how I felt about the whole situation.  I was nice, calm, and refrained from any tantrums or profanity, but I didn't beat around the bush as to my feelings.  It did no good as he claimed they had made all the "concessions" they could and that the remaining bill was in stone.    I'll add more details of the bill and the outcome in a little while, have to run for the moment.

[Jasperfield]

You need to select a lawyer now, who will explain the law to you and communicate with your adversary. This won't make it to court, it'll be settled.

Discuss your attorney's fees and get a prognosis.

He will save you way more than his fee. Don't stumble around with this. The ball's in your court.

[timberfaller390]

I had basically the same thing happen to me with a machine shop that did some work on an engine of mine. The money wasn't anywhere near what you are dealing with but it was triple the cost I was estimated. I never got a phone call to let me know it was going to cost me more. I walked into the shop and was handed the bill which had work listed that to this day I don't think was done. I told the owner that we had not discussed the price going up and I did not have the money to pay the inflated price, I only had enough to pay the original price I was quoted. He said he would take what money I had as a down payment and give me my parts. It's been about 10 years ago and I just never can seem to find time to get by the place and make that first payment on my balance  :D

[sjfarkas]

I would ask for copies of everything they have, in person and stand there and watch them make copies.  be polite and calm and don't take no for an answer.  don't leave until you get them and when they call the cops because you won't leave because they're scared to give them to you  just explain the situation to the police and even offer to pay for the copies.  If they won't give you copies take photos of everything in the file.  then if the info in the file does show they have that much into it. Ask them to remove whatever items weren't authorized from the machine.  If that doesn't work get a lawyer that is mean and viscious.  Just to make their lives hell. 

[lancek]

 What you need to do is go to your phone book and look up a peralegal service you can hire them at about one thrid the cost they will do all the legal reserch and inform you what paper work you need to file they may allso give you information on how to present you case to the judge, you allso need to contact your atturany generals office and see if any other complaints have been filed agenst this company or there owners, then take all your doc. in front of the judge and present your case in the same calm manor that you handled the service manager ! And dont think you dont  have the time or money or you cant win aginst there lawyer [ I took on the state of wisconsin in this manor and one $75000] by the sounds of things the judge should find in your favor and maybe give you compinsation for all your troubles Lancek

[thompsontimber]

Thanks for all the replies and input.  Just to clarify on all that time it took for repair DanG, while it did take much longer than we anticipated, in their defense they did manage to complete their work in less than 3 months.  The machine burnt the week of July 4th, but we did not get an estimate from them until a couple weeks after the incident.  We then did not decide to fix the machine and manage to get it loaded and delivered to them until a couple more weeks had passed.  Their detailed invoice shows their estimate was given July 13, their work began on August 10 and concluded on September 14. Then, after the machine was finished they presented us with the bill that was triple the estimate, which we refused to pay so that is why they still have the machine and we are still dealing with the situation.  The official bill is now at a total of $18783.34, down from the original 24K+ but still a touch above their estimate of 8000.  Authorized additional repairs include $1620 for a wiring harness, repacking a cylinder for which they charged a total of 452.33, and air conditioner service which I can only make sense of $185 in parts cost but can't figure out how much labor they attached with the 185.  Providing them with 1000 worth of labor on top of those numbers and granting them the original high end of their estimate still doesn't take you much over 12K.  Among those most bogus charges I mentioned in the beginning posts, our official estimate charge sits at $522.95, but only a modest $180.30 for unloading the machine. 

[Chico]

AS sasid make them produce the parts they replasced and show you where you auth the extra repairs if the quote was 8000 and you ok ed an additional repair that should be the bill There are a lot of people who will help you besides lawyers call the SBA and ask them for advice BBB may also help 
Chico
If all else fails 10 grand will pay for a pretty good lawyer and if I'was going to have to pay it I rather burn it than give it to them jmo

[DanG]

Most any lawyer will give you a consultation for a minimal fee of well under $100, and many give that initial meeting for free.  If you have all your stuff in hand and your story straight, you can learn an awful lot about where you stand.

[WDH]

I think that DanG hit the nail on the head.  A consultation with a lawyer will show you the lay of the land.  You can decide from there. 

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to the above.

[rebocardo]

> The official bill is now at a total of $18783.34, down from the original 24K+ but still a touch above their estimate of 8000.

Sounds like more then what it would have cost at the original dealership price ...

First off, I think you need a lawyer, even at $300 an hour.

Have you asked to see the time cards? On the back of the RO it should have a bunch of stamps or glued on slips to arrive at the labor total. Or at least hand written time in and time out. If they refuse to show you, get a written bill for whatever you agreed to under negotiating , get that copy in YOUR hand, then tell them you are going to hire a lawyer and have the whole shop's business audited by your lawyer to determine if they are over and double billing you. Then leave the machine there and walk out.

[Chico]

Rebocardo 's right I  didn't think about that they have a book that has time to charge for each job but they still have to turn in actual reports for their pay which rarely is close to the hrs charged