Portable Planer question

[wkheathjr]

Currently shopping for some of TF tools.  Here is what I have gotten so far beside the barr chisel and wood mallet from the workshop.

I got me a big foot saw for $197.50 shipped.
I got me a 1" corner chisel for $26 shipped.
I got me a Stanley Sweetheart 1940's hand planer for $20. (Craig's List)
(Note: all tools used)

Planning to buy some tools on Black Friday if they offer % off on certain amount of items purchased at Lowe's or Home Depot?  Here is what I plan on buying:

1) Construction calculation $48
2) Small "L" square as I find it helpful to mark the peg hole rather than using bigger one $16 I think?
3) Combination Square $22
4) Rip and Crosscut handsaw $25 ea
(couldn't find Outside Caliper at Lowe's??)

Now here is the question.. I noticed that Jim Rogers recommended 6" portable planer and I do saw few for $400-600.  Ok, I was wondering what is the difference between 6" or 8" or 12".  Yes, I would agree that there is huge difference in how much it cost as the 12" is over $3,000 and I probably would rather to invest that money into a sawmill or an ATV/UTV than on a machine like this!  But performance-wise, what is the benefit?  Is there any difference in result?  Don't you worry about ending up planing it unleveled?  You would have to excuse me for asking because I used a 12" planer but haven't had the opportunity to use 6" so I am trying to decide if I should get 6" while I can with Black Friday discount or not??

Thanks in advance for answering!

[krusty]

Well I would buy a 12" speed square, Borneman layout tool

and old 26" crosscut handsaw. learn how to sharpen it

I don't use my rip saw at all.

Save $$ for better tools and these old saws are fine!

As for the planer....unless you plan to build for a living I would go with a small Makita if required until you have some revenue coming in.

[witterbound]

We used a Makita chain mortiser and the 16" Makita saw about the same amount on my frame.  The 6 3/4 inch Makita planer is useful, but I had a hard time with it if the timber was wider than 6".  Kept gouging out one side, then having to take more off the other....  I'd usually have to clean up it up with a hand plane.   I was also disappointed because the plane often left "ripples" in the wood.  Little lines where the blades wouldn't quite take everything off.  Thus, I had to sand almost all of my timbers to get rid of the ripples.  We used the 12" Mafell planer on some of my big timbers.  When it was tuned right, it did a fantastic job.   For squaring timbers you'll use the 6" more.  As far as hand tools go, I'd get a good Stanley rabbet plane.  Very useful for cleaning up tenons, as well as planing timbers. 

[shinnlinger]

WK,

What are your plans?  Going in the businesses?  Want to build your own house?  I have found bandsawn timbers are pretty smooth.  I also saw in here somewhere, where some one took a 13" bench planer, removed the bottom, and hung it from their bandsaw mill.  For the $500 (and you can find deals well below that) you might spend on a  benchtop planer, you could probably convince whoever was sawing your timbers to plane them right then and there.  Afterwards you could put the planer back together and you still have that tool.

[wkheathjr]

First off, I just recently paid off my campground business debt so I would like to keep away from financing for a while.  Ideally, yes I would probably go into TF business but not anytime soon.  First I would like to get some experiences in by helping out.  I will be enrolling in the Apprenticeship program with Goshen TF after thanksgiving hopefully for three months and I hope they win a bid on 4k SQFT house because I'd love to get hand-on experience on that.

Yea, you could say that I'd like to start out small and technically "old-fashioned".  Although I will have a luxury of using Goshen TF equipments for a while, I'd like to get some hand-on experience with old method before upgrading to luxury tools when my budget permit. 

My currently plan is to get some experience under my belt and as soon as I return back to home, I'd like to start building couple of cabins (for my campground), and then a mult-purpose building (I have consulted with Goshen TF architecture about designing me a plan) and hopefully my home within next year and so. 

So with the tools I listed, I am also eyeing the 16" saw if I can find used one but I might wait on that and hope that guys at Goshen TF can find me a good deal on used one.  For now, just trying to get what I can locally or on internet for a good price.  It looks like the planer might have to wait so I will look into sander.

Krusty, thank for reminding me of old handsaw.  I recall using my grandpa's handsaw when I made a doghouse so I will have to go into his old shop and see what I can find.

[Brad_bb]

You haven't mentioned having done any timberframing yet, have you?  If not, I'd hold off on any significant purchases until you get a little experience to understand what you would really use or not, and what you really need vs. what would be a luxury. 

The basics you need to start out are
1.5 & 2 inch framing chisel
Mallet
Good square
combination square
a basic handsaw like a Stanley sharptooth
Basic 7.25  circ saw.
Bit &brace or Bit and heavy drill.

Those are the basics.  A 6" makita planer isn't generally for converting all your sawn timbers into planed timbers.  That would be a ton of work.  I have one, but I'm now not sure how much I'll use it.  I have a 16" saw, but after I've now been using the sharptooth hand saw, I'm not sure if I really will use it as much as I thought.  Sharp hand saws cut quick and are easier to use, with less fuss and noise.  When sharp, they are not going to wear out your arm.  This is what I'm learning anyway, and I'm probably just a little ahead of you.  Just warning you not to go overboard with spending on tools, though I know how much fun that can be, until you've had a chance to work on a frame and get a feel for what you'll prefer to use.

[shinnlinger]

I'll Second what Brad said...

Don't buy fancy smancy TF tools just yet...  I have cut  3 frames with only the tools he mentioned minus the 2 inch chisel and combo square but plus a chainsaw, which I modified a bit and that is up in the tools for timber framers at the top of this section....  Just think, 200 years ago, a Timber framer would have lusted after the tools Brad mentioned...

[witterbound]

I've found that one of my favorite tools is a 2" chisel with a handle that's about 14" long and thicker than a regular barr handle.  Gives you a lot of handle to push.  I often find myself using my thigh to help push.  Not nearly as big as a slick.  Kinda "slick lite" I guess.

[wkheathjr]

You haven't mentioned having done any timberframing yet, have you?  If not, I'd hold off on any significant purchases until you get a little experience to understand what you would really use or not, and what you really need vs. what would be a luxury. 

Yes, I have done little timberframing but you may be right that it is just a week worth of working.  I will be returning back to be in the Apprenticeship program in few weeks and will be doing some more.  I am hoping for 2-3 months but have to see how it works out with few things first.

During the week, there were four students and we did 22 posts with a lot of holes so we used chain mortiser a lot that week.  We had to use calculation often to correct some errors in the blueprint and to determine few things with the posts.  We used big foot saw (10.25) a lot when creating tenons on posts, braces, and grits.  We didn't really use the 7.25 or 16" saw that much and I hate the 16" because it is heavy, but I will admit it is helpful however it is not exactly top on my list right now.  Just trust me on this that noise will never be a factor for me as it would be for you because I am deaf.

I was just asking questions about the planer because Jim Rogers suggested 6" and we used 12" planer few times during the week although we used sander more than we used planer.  I already own a construction drill and it is really powerful so I just need a drill bit for it, but I am not sure I would use it to drill hole for mortise, though.  Sometime it is just too strong it could go over the board causing you to drill deeper.  Might be good for peg hole with good auger that will not leave damage/ugly brisk (sp?) on other end.

My future plan will includes building 20+ cabins for the campground, update outdoor stage supporting brace using TF for decorative, my home, my shop, multi-purpose building, and mountain home so it looks like I will be doing pretty good load of works that eventually some of the expensive tools will come in hand.  I am not really in big hurry to buy them all but if a good deal come by, I would not hesistate to buy it even if I don't need it tomorrow but I could next week or next year.  In the end, if I don't need it then I can always sell it or trade it.  And the list I planned on buying seems to be what you were suggesting that I don't already have.   The others that I already purchased is based on how often I used during the week of workshop (call it subconcious thing that comes to mind when thinking of what I used often).

[Brad_bb]

Well I'll tell you that our experiences are a lot alike.  I didn't mention the mortiser because I figured if you hadn't used one yet, you should buy one, so you can first figure out what you like.  I've broken my own advice too though, buying when I thought I found a great deal. 

One bit of advice that surprised me though, I attended my second workshop this past June with Collin Beggs out in Idaho.  In his week long workshop, we used only hand tools.  He has and uses some power tools, but his class was for hand tools.  And what a valuable lesson it was.  My first class had been with power tools, and I wish it had been the other way around.  We used sharp hand saws for cut offs instead of the 16" saw or a smaller circ saw.  We cut all our shoulders and rips of tenons with hand saws, and we felt they were more accurate, when using proper technique, and more controllable than their powered counterparts.  It was nice working in the shop with only the sound of hand tools.  When seeing how fast the hand saws were, it makes me want to reach for the hand saw first.  We'll see when I get deep into my own project. 

Also, we used the bit and brace for all peg holes.  It's fast and I feel more controllable than a power drill.  I know love bit and brace.  And they are not expensive these days.  I picked up several braces on ebay and some bits from Jim Rogers.  I think in the future I'll be reaching for both power and hand tools when it comes to cutting, but I really like the hand tools and am glad I was taught proper technique.

Few people know how to use a hand saw to get an accurate, square cut.  It's very achievable once someone shows you the technique.  Collin really turned me on to the hand tools.   

[wkheathjr]

What made you decide to take second workshop somewhere else?  Was it because of scribe/square rules or because you found out it mainly used only hand tools instead of power tool?

I have thought about taking other workshop because of scribe rule just to learn and gain knowledge but I find your recently post interesting.  After taking that second workshop, did you find yourself not using chain mortiser or ?  I'd probably like to use the handsaw rather than 16" saw because I find myself getting horrible result using 16" that I usually leave few 16th" off the top of tenon line and use the hand planer to get that thin woods off to perfect the tenon.  Yes, it can be time consuming but this method worked better for me at least until I get some practice to perfect it or find a better method if I never get used to 16" saw.

[witterbound]

IMHO a big part of getting used to the 16" is buying the aftermarket base.  It is a big improvement.

[Brad_bb]

I'd like to get the aluminum base for mine, but finances don't allow for such a luxury at this time. 

The first workshop I took was with Steve Chappell at Foxmaple.com.  It was a great class for a beginner and I learned a lot.  We used mill rule.  That is, we used planed timbers, and you assume that they are straight and square.  This make layout simpler.  You are not housing joints etc.  We used circ saws, Makita chain mortiser, and the 16" saw.  There was a lot of focus on timberframe design and math initially, giving the theory and calculation of joint sizing etc. 

After the class, through more research, I realized that there was another layout technique called square rule, both regular and snap line, that allows you to work with timbers that are not planed or perfect.  Collin Beggs workshop (timberframesbycollinbeggs.com) was using square rule, and that was what I was after, to get experience with square rule layout.  I was also hoping to get an understanding of scribe technique.  Although it was not a part of the class, he set up a demonstration for us one night upon my request and went through the theory and practice.  I didn't realize the extra benefits I was going to get via the "hand tools only".  As I said, learning how to properly use a hand saw, as simple as it might seem, was invaluable, along with using boring machines, learning how fun bit and brace use is, and lastly, he showed us how to make our own oak pegs on a home made shaving horse and draw knife.  Pegs are fun, fast and easy to do by hand.

I had also seen examples of Collin's timber frame work, including scribing in tree crotches sawn on 2 sides, in his frames.  I picked up a lot from him.

I'd recommend both workshops.  While it made sense to learn mill rule and calculation and theory first, it then made sense to learn square rule second.  Having experienced both the hand tool instruction and using the power tools, made me better at both.  It also showed me that sometimes I'd rather reach for a hand tool for a given purpose , and sometimes visa versa, giving you more versatility and ability to choose the most efficient tool.

[witterbound]

Brad, did Collin use snap lines? 

[wkheathjr]

Brad,

Thanks for the input and I will look into square rules.  I will see if Joel can teach me this during the apprenticeship program (if we have time) but it might be better if I took the workshop somewhere else learning that.

witterbound, what aftermarket base??

[witterbound]

Here is a link to the base. 

http://tfguild.stores.yahoo.net/bigmasawba.html

They've gone up $75 since I bought mine 2 years ago.

[wkheathjr]

Here is a link to the base. 

http://tfguild.stores.yahoo.net/bigmasawba.html

They've gone up $75 since I bought mine 2 years ago.

WHOA! $350 for that alone.. I dont know about it.. I probably would refrain from purchasing it until I have at least get some practice in first.  I am usually the type that get real good after some practice and if it still doesn't help then maybe..

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

I had also seen examples of Collin's timber frame work, including scribing in tree crotches sawn on 2 sides, in his frames.  I picked up a lot from him.

Brad, that sounds awesome.  I still want to do a scribed cruck frame entryway to my house - do you have any links to Collin's work?

w.r.t. tools and layout.  I pretty much used "mill rule" too if that's what its called.  I milled the timbers to within an 1/8th, and kept a framing square to check every timber at my woodmizer... and then used a 12" Makita planer to get them to the exact size for layout.  Of course there were exceptions here and there.  This method of layout allowed me to employ helpers without bringing them way up the learning curve.  If someone were going to "house" all their joints (a pretty high standard!), then accurate timbers don't really provide an advantage... I realized.  As far as the 16" saw goes, that was the last tool I bought - I thought I could get along without it, but finally realized it was going to save me time/$ in the long run.  Plus, since that saw is also useful to log-home-builders and even stick framers, it has a high resell/marketability quotient.  I've not sold mine yet, but it's the one everyone wants to borrow, even though they aren't timberframing.  In fact, it's loaned out right now. 

[Jim_Rogers]

Thomas:
here is a link to Collin's site:

http://timberframesbycollinbeggs.com/

You'll have to search his gallery to see his work, or go to my gallery (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1921) as I have a folder there with some of his work he asked me to post here for him.

Jim Rogers

[Brad_bb]

Yeah, there is a "portfolio" link at the bottom of his homepage.  He has a lot of pics of his work, but it hardly does justice to seeing it in person.  He took us one night to tour the "House of good Cheer" he designed and built.  He also had one of the best stone guys and cabinet maker work with him on that project and more.

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

Thanks Jim and Brad, his portfolio is awesome.  This is going to take a while to digest!

Breath-taking!  He does nice work.  Oh to have a cruck frame.

[wkheathjr]

Don't know if this is a good deal or not?  I managed to find a makita 16.25" saw for $305 plus $30 shipping?  It is used one, not new one.   8)

[ljmathias]

I paid almost a thousand for mine- sounds like a good deal to me if it's reasonably clean, not too many hours and comes with a sharp blade (blades are somewhat pricey).

Lj

[wkheathjr]

Seems reasonable alright to me and I can use PB Blaster to remove some of the rust on the metal.  The blade looks alright to me for now but I would still get new one anyway..

[ljmathias]

Looks fine- just remember that this bad boy has a mind of its own.  As soon as you hit the really hard to finagle button-plus-trigger by holding the handle with one hand, pushing the button with the other and keeping the other hand firmly gripping the guide handle- the slightest movement causes the spinning blade to act like the gyroscope that it is, twisting sideways to your intended direction of motion.  This can easily cause loss of body parts.

These saws are also heavy, and definitely CANNOT be used one-handed.  You have to really set up your cut carefully and make sure everything is ready and supported just right.  If you're cutting a beam, for example, have the cut-away section held up enough so that it won't put pressure on the blade as it loses its fight with gravity in the last part of the cut- "twist and shout" are no longer just for the dance floor.

What it boils down to is this, in my opinion (free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it): for those big pieces of wood that you absolutely need this saw for, you need it.  For anything else, even if it involves a front-and-back double cut or some such, use a smaller saw.  Makita also makes a 10" which is a nice size for many pieces that don't require the jump from 71/4" to 16+"....

Be careful and take your time- lots more of that around than spare fingers and hands.

Lj

[wkheathjr]

ljmathias,

Right you are!  I know what you are talking about and I kept a firm grip on it from start to fininsh (when the blade stops turning).  I had opportunity to use it few times during the workshop and once it jammed on me so yeah and I did used 10" more than 16" or 7".  I got a Big Foot(10") with wormdrive for $177 plus shipping for under $200 all together.

Next is Chain Mortiser and then I can start build 3 projects within next 6 months.  My plan is to build a walkway bridge, one small cabin, and a shop.  By the time I get through with cutting for first project I should have enough fund for a drill guide and a 1", 1.5", and 2" drill bits.

[shinnlinger]

Another thing to be careful of with those big Makitas is to not over estimate it's power.  If your ripping a big angle say on a eve or ridge tie, you can burn them out.  JUst because the blade can engage the wood, it doesn't mean it can cut it.  Listen to the saw and don't force it.

[Jim_Rogers]

wkheathjr:
In your case you'll have to watch the saw and feel it's vibrations. If you see the blade slowing down by watching the sawdust output then slow down your forward motion, and let the saw cut the wood slower......
Learning the speed to feed a large saw is important, and it can change when cutting depending on what you are cutting (type of wood) and what you are cutting through, knots and other defects.

Jim

PS. I talked with Bonnie the other day, and she had nothing but good words to say about you.
Good luck.....