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Loblolly maximum row width?

Started by Stan snider, September 30, 2009, 11:49:52 PM

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SwampDonkey

I remember one fellow figured he'd plant trees in a field that was planted to oats. Harvested the oats along with the trees. :D I've seen all kinds of stunts. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Pullinchips

I did my masters project partially on pine straw production along the coastal plain.  It was a part of the conservationforestry theme that i was studing, where other non tradiotional forestry techniques were used to sustian addional objectives along with money which was not usually the main objective.  I had a paper i beleive from UGA that said that you can rake on three year rotations without supplemental fertilizer.  The age all depends on spacing and soil, with some areas around here on good sites being raked as early as 6yrs old (longleaf).  Most all straw in my area is hand raked so the rows are not these 12 foot monsters like your thinking.  At that time my recomendation was to plant LL thick and not thin till tree decline was noticed then clearcut and restart. Actually it still would be with the decline in prices of roundwood, the hard part about this is that i have seen my day job is that with the hard market out there straw is not selling like it use to when house were flying off the shelf and everyone was pretting up there property, with average homeowners struggling to pay bills or save, there not throwing pine straw (read dollars here) into their yards at the same rate so this recomendation is that you have a market for the stuff as on a longtern plan the wood, even accounting for the higher percentages of poles that LL produces,  is never close to what the pine straw is worth.  This is why i would not do anything more than a light thinning because as u open it up it degrades straw quality to where you may not be able to sell it due to just trash like vines and briars.  The way to account for this is a longterm contract where the straw buyer will apply herbicide to all unwanted trees and brush as to maintain a clean understroy.

Ok i got on a tangent this 3 yr rotation consist of one year fallow one year burn and one yar harvest.  Lets start at age 10 (to make it round #'s) year 10 fallow, year 11 burn, year 12 rake, year 13 fallow, year 14 burn, etc.  etc.  The burn cleans up the old straw and sticks and trash and prepares the ground to have a clean base for the straw to fall on and increases the value to the landowner.

I read others on raking every year and i beleive it only required fertilizer every 10 years but i really cant remember without digging out my stuff, (i know im a bad student) but the way i see it is, like i had a professor tell me, as long as you understand it and know where to look for your answer is what counts, i dont have all those books memorized but i know that i can refer to one to answer a question on some uncommen situation to me.



-Nate
Resident Forester
US Army Corps of Engineers: Savannah District

Clemson Forestry Grad 2004
MFR Clemson University 2006
Stihl MS 390

SwampDonkey

I'm no fan of burning personally. What I see that it does to pasture and cultivated land, is it encourages weeds indicative of poor sites to flourish and takes away carbon from the litter layer that could be worked into the soil by the creepy crawly critters. Thus loss of nitrogen as well. Still people continue to burn grass in their back 10 acre pasture and the golden rods, daisies, black eyed susans, alders, asters, devil's paint brush, thorns, sumac, red osier dogwood take over so a decent spruce or hardwood tree is sparse until they leave it alone all together and you start getting something worth while growing. Some people think weeds make good hay for cattle, because that's all I see cut on some fields. Dad never fed any of his animals those weeds, only good timothy and clover and grains. Walk through a field with cattle pastured and you'll see that cows avoid touching all those weeds listed above.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Pullinchips

Swamp i respect your knowlege and opinion, but on this i think you are right and wrong.  I mean in your area of canada fire may not be as frequent of an occurance so you may be correct but here in the south esp. in the LL forest it has been proven that it burned like every 1-5 years.  Many of the species that are desired in this ecosystem are fire dependant.

But you were talking about hay fields and pastures i am speaking about woods so you may be aware of all i have said.

Pitcher plant is one and the big and little bluestem etc.  Wire grass is the dominant species which allows fire to be carried in this open savannahlike forest.   When you exclude fire in this ecosystem you get encroachment of things like sweetgum and non desirable hardwood species which are not fire tolerant and you get increase frequency of wax myrtle and red and sweetbay, all of these create a waxy leaf understory when  not allowed to burn every few years your get disaterous fires which kill everything including the overstory, (look up the myrtle Beach fires here in SC, nothing compared to cal. but huge in this area).  These large fires steralize the soil and volitalize every bit of litter down to bare mineral soil, not what a good controlled burn does. A proper burn will leave the moist litter layer and just burns fresh needles and steams the cambium of smaller trees either killing them or topkilling them.  Some nitrogen is volitized but there is still the entire organic layer of detritus in the soil as well as the older leaves straw, and partially decomposed stuff.  Many plants in this system proliferate after fire what you get depends on weather its a growing season burn or dormant burn.

The moitains of SC as well as all appalachia was also said to burn frequently can remember the frequency but i think it was something like 5-20 yrs but not sure?  Since fire suppression after ww2 is the reason we see fare more sweetgun and poplar in the moutains than historcally there as well as the thick moutain laural that has creeped out of creek banks and covered entire hillsides, which again burns wery hot when it does.  Reasearch has proven that sweetgum and poplar when seeded will use a lot of energy in above ground growth (why it grows tall fast) but little on root growth, where oaks for a long time will develop roots first and not much topgrowth, so a frequent fire does little to setback growth but on a sweetgum a fire will top kill it and after a while will kill it or if the fire is severe enough it kills the roots and not oak roots which are deeper and older and then leaves the oaks in a position to repopulate after a good fire.  If your interested look up Van Lear in USFS papers he spent his career studying this and i had the benefit of being taught siliculture under him in one of his last years he taught.

I know this is taken a huge tangent of how wide should my rows be so sorry for that.

And hey swamp not trying to ruffle feathers here, like i said your my elder and you have probly as many yrs experience as i am old but i dont think your statement holds true at least in my region.
But you were talking about hay fields and pastures i am speaking about woods so you may be aware of all i have said.

-Nate
Resident Forester
US Army Corps of Engineers: Savannah District

Clemson Forestry Grad 2004
MFR Clemson University 2006
Stihl MS 390

SwampDonkey

I wasn't attacking you Nate. Stuff just spill's out of my fingers because of what my eyes see around me. Sometimes what spills out is like oil and covers a whole lot of stuff that ain't directly relevant, but may have some slight resemblance to the topic. :D As a point of note, our hardwood forests up here would be rare to have a fire in at all. Our spruce/fir/pine and cedar forests burn a lot more frequent, but 80-200 or more years on the same ground. They use 80 here because it fits their management model of 80 year rotations based on clear cuts mostly. But we know it can be much longer or we wouldn't have 400 year old red spruce, 180 year old jack pine or 300 year old cedar. ;) Besides that this part of the country has been settled for 500 years and most fires since we had a fire fighting policy in NB have been man made in these parts. My grandmother's cousin was chief forester of NB in his day and was responsible for our fire fighting program. Not that that fact has any bearing on the discussion except for a whole lot better record keeping of fires since the program began. ;) I mean there were fires before that not even noted, too far away from settlements to care. Except the really big ones that came to towns like the Miramachi fire. During the 70 and 80's there were a few deliberate fires set in poorer regions of the province, just to get a job and nothing else.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Yep, y'all are talking about entirely different ecosystems.  Longleaf requires fire to thrive, otherwise all the other species that invade out compete it.  With fire, longleaf is boss.  Northern species need a different cycle.

Nature has her ways.... :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

That's kinda where I don't conform. The fire thing, because it benefits species procreation of the desirable ones ignores the fact that other species are meant to come along in the natural ecology of the area to reach a climax forest. Maybe it becomes hardwood with less fire frequency. That I don't know as I have not lived down there to be educated in that environment. My gut tells me there is more fire frequency in a hotter climate. ;D :D

OK, I said enough. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 11, 2010, 04:07:40 AM
The fire thing, because it benefits species procreation of the desirable ones ignores the fact that other species are meant to come along in the natural ecology of the area to reach a climax forest.

Not so on the sites where longleaf adapted.  The climax forest is a fire dominated longleaf pine - wiregrass ecosystem with associated other plants and animals like gohper tortoise, red cockaed woodpecker, the indigo snake, etc.  It has nothing to do with human desirability.  Nature created it.  Now, it is mostly gone because of human preference.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Pullinchips

WDH is correck LL is the climax species with a BA of avg 40 or less in some cases with trees that are 2-4 feet in diameter with younger patches of LL spread troughout.  If you exclude fire yes you will get a more HW dominated forest the waxy shrubs/short trees will invade and the HW out of the swamp fringes and Ponds(if your not from here you will see a wet hole/depression with tupelo gum, cant forget cypress and water oaks red maple etc in it) these areas would only burn in a super dry catistrophic fire, but anyway these hardwoods would creep up the hill (like 6 inches of topography in many places) and populate the longleaf savannahs and the wire grass will be lost shaded out the LL dominat trees have hardwood all around them and the RCW leaves and you have nothing resembling forests of 400 years ago, hey kind of like today in all but the most intensively mangaged (for LL areas).  This i gues you can say with the influence of man and the exclusion of fire this is what the climactic forest would be, but in a world without man all of his subdivisions walmarts etc, or if we were all gone again and could come back in 150 years we would most likely see a LL dominated forest with wiregrass again as seeds i have heard can remain viable for rediculous amounts of time untill a fire and they are exposed.  Now this would only be in coastal plain areas as you go inland you have several different systems, but again in the sandhills (old coast line about 80 miles from the current ocean) you again have these LL forests as they are one of the few trees that can live in the very poor deep sand found here today as well as back before us.

I wasent taking it like you were trying to beat me up i just wanted to make sure that those reading this realized that mine as well as yours cant really be taken as a blanket statement (different areas evolved differently with different fire regimes). Just like you i know will ill say it nothing about Canadian silviculture, we leared all those furs and spruces in school but other than seeing them in yards or arboretums (sp?) i will never see one in the woods nor put onto one of my log trucks so i have no idea of their habitat requirements soil or life cyle needs or anything other than the brief lessons received on them in dendro.

I wasent trying to beat you up either just could not leave it at that and have an unknowing reader scratching his head.

-Nate

Hey by the way where is the pig roast id lov to get to one when it is closer by.  Im kind on young just starting out and funds to travel to these exotic locations like florida or michigan do not exist :D
Resident Forester
US Army Corps of Engineers: Savannah District

Clemson Forestry Grad 2004
MFR Clemson University 2006
Stihl MS 390

WDH

The Pig Roast don't move.  It is firmly entrenched in Harrison, MI   :).  It is Michigan or Bust  :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Nate, I'm glad I ain't the only poor forester. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Pullinchips

we need to start a southern pig roast!
Resident Forester
US Army Corps of Engineers: Savannah District

Clemson Forestry Grad 2004
MFR Clemson University 2006
Stihl MS 390

Rocky_Ranger

RETIRED!

Pullinchips

If thats what you want to eat but i was just thinking pig or hog on the grill but i guess if thats what you want we can take requests!  :D
Resident Forester
US Army Corps of Engineers: Savannah District

Clemson Forestry Grad 2004
MFR Clemson University 2006
Stihl MS 390

Magicman

I haven't really announced it yet, and it's not gonna be a pig roast, but there is going to be a Get Together/Field Day at my place soon.  Pinenut, fishpharmer, Radar, & ljmathias for sure are coming.  Those that do not attend will be talked about.... :D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Rocky_Ranger

Hey I ain't proud, I come from the South so down here we eat what we can catch if'n we is hungry  :D  Armadillo is best in chili and not on the grill though, I could get used to some hog in the ground or in a smoker.  Wish I could get up to piggy roast, or down to the piggy roast.  I am usually close to some fine eatin' somewhere....  ;D
RETIRED!

WDH

Lynn,

You need to get one of them New Brunswick hogs.  I am told that they feed them shrimp and grits  ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

 :D :D :D

They're happy hogs to. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Magicman

Ain't gettin' my Paula Dean "Shrimp and Grits....cause there weren't none left...... musteat_1
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brian Beauchamp

Fire is a tool just as much as the axe is...and you'd better know what you're doing with each beforehand or you'll be paying for mistakes later. I mentored a crew of college kids working on their Capstone project a couple of years ago. Their initial plan was to implement prescribed fire on a loblolly plantation in year 11...until I informed them it would more likely turn out to be a 'site prep' burn for a replanting in year 12. I took them to an 11-year-old plantation in SW Arkansas to show them firsthand what I was talking about...low-branching trees with needle-covered vines tangled up into the canopy acting as ladder fuels that would annihilate the stand if fire was allowed into it...almost no matter what the burning conditions. They quickly realized they'd have to adjust their plan and also realized that when implementing any management regime, the tool used must be the one that best meets the objectives of management.  Sometimes the tool gets favored in lieu of the objectives.

Anyway...random comment of the day.  :)

By the way, Pullinchips, were you a member of the Clemson crew that supposedly cut down a large pine during the 2004 (or 2003 maybe) Conclave with a crosscut saw? lol

WDH

Quote from: Brian Beauchamp on March 14, 2010, 01:02:26 AM
By the way, Pullinchips, were you a member of the Clemson crew that supposedly cut down a large pine during the 2004 (or 2003 maybe) Conclave with a crosscut saw? lol

I would like to have seen that!

I am a Conclaver from more ancient times.  Georgia in 1976, Stephen F. Austin in 1977, Clemson in 1978, and Arkansas in 1979. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Rocky_Ranger

How about NC State in '74, Mississippi State in '75, and UGA in '76?  The earth was flat back then, and, apparently, had more beer  8)
RETIRED!

WDH

Well Rocky, if you were in Georgia in 1976, we shared some of the same competitive ground ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Rocky_Ranger

RETIRED!

Raider Bill

I love listening to you elderly  guys reminisce about the good old days! ;D
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

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