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Manual vs automatic WM board return

Started by pnyberg, September 24, 2009, 05:28:59 PM

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pnyberg

I'll stop bothering people with my WM mill configuration questions soon, because I intend to pull the trigger before the end of the month.  WM is supposed to be at the "Celebrating Agriculture" fair in Woodstock, CT on Saturday, so I'm hoping that this will give me one last opportunity to kick the tires and ask some questions.

In cruising through the archives yet again, I've developed an appreciation for the connection between income potential and sawmill/sawyer productivity.  So, the Accuset and board return options have been bumped up on my list of desired features.  But, I'm scratching my head a bit on the board return.

If I understand this correctly, if I order the board return with my LT40HDG28 (standard hydraulic), it will come with a manual board return.  To drop it, I would need to pull out a big pin.  But, if I wait until after I have purchased the mill, I can order the automatic board return that comes with the LT40 Super, and it can be installed as a retrofit on the standard hydraulic with little fuss.  In this case, the board return could be raised or lowered with the flick of a switch.

I'm taking this mostly from a post last March from DR_BUCK, but I seem to recall reading similar comments in other posts, though they may have been written by DR_BUCK as well.

Have I got this right?

Thanks,
    Peter
No longer milling

derhntr

I rarely use my return. Even when saw by my self.

Brian
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

Papa1stuff

WM doesn't recomend using board return when sawing alone!
1987 PB Grader with forks added to bucket
2--2008 455 Rancher Husky
WM CBN Sharpener & Setter

pnyberg

Yet many do, and live to tell the tale  ;). 

From what I've read, no one understands what the issue is, other than a liability concern on the part of WM.  It seems to me the more people you've got hanging around the mill, the more likely it is that someone will get whacked by a board that's being dragged back.  The sawyer using a walk-along mill is probably in a safer position than anyone else within a board's length of the mill.

--Peter
No longer milling

Bibbyman

Here is a link to a good video on the WM web site that shows each in action.

http://www.woodmizer.com/us/sawmills/options/manualBoardReturn.aspx

The way they demo it, it works will with a "walk along" or "ride along" setup. 

The problem comes with the Command Control models where there is no one there to guide the boards coming off.  If the end of the log is not cut square, the board will shoot off to the right or left.  Shorter boards may hit the front edge of the short slide table provided.





Wood-Mizer make a table to return the boards onto.





I made my own out of wood.  It works well but now it needs rebuilding.  :-\





The LT70 mill comes with a fully developed dragback system with guides and a nice size table for the boards to fall on.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Bibbyman

Manual vs. power board return – Part 2..

In thinking about it,  I'd think that a power board return would not be as useful on a Standard WM HD mill as it would on a Super HD mill.  This opinion is based on how we use the board return on our Super.

We saw the slab and offbear it to the back side of the mill.  It could be drug back and stacked someplace else but that's how we're set up.  Then we often saw ties or cants so once the slabs are removed we start making flitches or boards.  All of these are pulled back to the offbearer using the board return.  So any time we're sawing cants or ties,  the board return can and usually is down.  The power option is not in use.

Then there are times when we are sawing common lumber and we square down the cant – using the board return as above.   Then we clamp the cant low and saw "through and through" – leaving all the boards on the mill until the last one is sawn.   While sawing "through and through" we have the board return up so it does not board return the board.   Then on the last cut,  we unclamp the cant and lower the board return and drag all the boards off at one time.

We can do this on the Super because the head motor is much bigger than on the Standard HD.  The head motor on the Standard HD my not be strong enough to drag more than on board at a time. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)  Thus,  on a Standard HD,  you could work with the board return down most of the time.

One disadvantage to the board return is that it reduces the window opening height of the mill by about 2".   This makes it more difficult to split big timbers or quarter saw a log.  Some people have removed the board return from their mills for this reason.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Magicman

Quote from: Bibbyman on September 24, 2009, 06:55:39 PM
One disadvantage to the board return is that it reduces the window opening height of the mill by about 2".   This makes it more difficult to split big timbers or quarter saw a log.  Some people have removed the board return from their mills for this reason.

Count me as a "board return remover".  Being mobile, I certainly was not going to haul around roller tables.  I don't like the idea of stuff going on behind my back that I can't see or have to turn my head to see.  It took up space and limited the size of the cant that I could handle.

I took it off and will never reinstall it......
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brucer

My advice is to wait until you've developed a sawing configuration. Then add whichever board return (if any) seems best suited to your operation.

I use mine primarily as a slab return. It took me 3 years of trying various configurations before I decided that I wanted to pull the slabs back toward me.

I spent about 3 months imagining (as I sawed) just how the board return would work with my latest layout. This simple exercise made me decide on the powered version, rather than the manual version.

Yes, the unit from a Super Hydraulic will fit the HDG28. The standard hydraulic mill isn't pre-wired to accomodate it, but it is pre-wired for a lubemizer.If you don't have a lubemizer unit, you can simply "borrow" those wires.

I saw alone, even though Wood-Mizer says not to use the board return if you do. You need to be careful the board (or slab) doesn't snag on something behind your back (like a bolt on the hydraulic box cover) and jump sideways at you. The newer units have an angle face so as to steer the returning board/slab away from the operator. I find that simply resting my right hand on the slab as I walk back is enough to guide it straight back.

You ought to be able to get a barely-used powered version from someone (like Magicman) who removed it from a Super. That's how I got mine -- cheap ;D ;D.

If you have Command Control and want to use a board return, you might consider fabricating a guide similar to the one used on the LT70.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

backwoods sawyer

I rarely use the board return on my mill simply because it exerts a side force on the mast and I have the old single post design, and with the LT-70 head hanging on it, and the post is already maxed out for what it was engineered for. The added twisting to the post was causing cracks to develop. I welded up the cracks and only use the board return on occasion. The cost to rebuild the whole mast, out weighs the need for the board return. I also find that the mill is better balanced when being towed with out the landing table as a counter weight to the tongue.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Bibbyman



The table by WM that is meant to be used with the LT28,40-50 series mill folds up like a card table and is to be hauled in a PU or something. The legs adjust in height so it can be set up at a slant or level or whatever.  Dave Mann pulling pin to adjust height as Greg Beair hold up table.  Mary supervising.

Before I built the wood table I removed the hitch end bolt that holds the hydraulic cover on because it tended to catch board returned.  As we saw stationary, it was unlikely the lid would go anyplace even if it came loose.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Warren

pb,

IF you decide you need a board return, and, IF you are truly concerned regarding productiivity, get a powered version.  the powered version allows you to raise and lower while on the move.  no need to stop, pull a pin, insert a pin, etc.

I was not aware that it was recommended to not use it by myself.  I use the board return regularly by myself.  Do not (yet) have a roller return table,  built two steel trestles/saw horses that I place at the head of the mill.  When I return the first few boards, or flitches, have to stop and drag them across the second saw horse.  After the first layer is established, the additional boards/flitches just stack up layer on layer until I am ready to start edging, or stacking into a finished pile.

I have had an occasional short board or flitch catch on the bolt head on the hydraulic box and "jump up".  But I have never had a board or flitch come off the board return in such a manner that I felt I was in an unsafe position.  My mill is a walk along.  I tend to guide the board or flitch with my right hand as I am returnign the mill head with my left hand.

I have seen one Forum member with a remote console LT40 create a board guide system on his saw head similar to the LT70 board guides, but using heavy roller chain in place of the steel bar stock.

Let us know where you net out once you pull the trigger...

-w-


LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

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