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How to charge and how much to charge???

Started by bikedude73, September 22, 2009, 10:52:10 PM

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bikedude73

Just wanted to know if there is a rule of thumb on prices on milling...  Also does wood mizer have contracts made up or do you just have them printed????? :P

Dan_Shade

you need to figure out your costs on your own.  a lot will depend on where you live.


some charge by the hour, some charge by the bf, some charge by the time.

i have begun to charge by the job, I base my estimate on distance from my location, scaled volume of job, and site layout.  This works for me.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

bandmiller2

BD,I would start off at the prevailing board foot rate in your area.That way your customer won't feel cheated as you learn,after that what ever works between boath of you.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

thecfarm

There is pros and cons to charging by the BF and the hour.I would change by the hour,once I felt I knew what I was doing,if I was custom sawing at someones place.They can call you and tell you they have logs all ready for you in a "pile".Pile is right.All crissed crossed in a pile.They may say I have 4 friends that will help.Get there and only 3 show up.Than one can only stay for 2 hours.The other ones leaves for something to eat and never comes back and the last one has to go to work.Than you are they all by yourself trying to make a buck.Makes it hard sometimes.I know some people will think you won't work as hard by the hour. Just have to prove them wrong.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ladylake

By the hour keeps your customers working fast also and covers you when you get small crooked logs.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Dan_Shade

bikedude73,

Woodmizer has produced a set of 6 DVD's.  One of them is a discussion on charging, and how various people go about setting rates and fees. 

Last I looked, the set was around $60-70, worth every penny.  I highly recommend the set.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

ARKANSAWYER


  When I bought my WM LT40 they gave me a pad with about 25 contracts that was made up.  You just entered your name and customers name and it had a carbon copy.   Then I printed my own using it as a format.
  If you have a WM LT40 hydralic then you are worth the going rate for a back hoe for your area.  Then to get your bdft rate just take what you can average with good logs cutting 1x lumber.   So for me It is $50 an hour for a back hoe and I sawed around 200 bdft an hour so I charge $0.25 bdft.  Some jobs I do just by the hour because of handling time and others by the bdft.
ARKANSAWYER

backwoods sawyer

Quote from: ARKANSAWYER on September 24, 2009, 09:35:19 AM

  When I bought my WM LT40 they gave me a pad with about 25 contracts that was made up.  You just entered your name and customers name and it had a carbon copy.   Then I printed my own using it as a format.
  If you have a WM LT40 hydralic then you are worth the going rate for a back hoe for your area.  Then to get your bdft rate just take what you can average with good logs cutting 1x lumber.   So for me It is $50 an hour for a back hoe and I sawed around 200 bdft an hour so I charge $0.25 bdft.  Some jobs I do just by the hour because of handling time and others by the bdft.

When I first got started I spent some time talking with backhoe and other equipment operators here locally to find a good starting point for an hourly rate. It turned out to be $60.00 hr, which works out real good for calculating partial hour. 20 min = $20.00. To come up with a board footage rate I averaged out what I could produce in a day and divided it by the hourly rate. It worked out to $0.30 bft.
I use the board footage rate for all softwoods, and the hourly rate for all hardwood, because the handling of the hardwood logs can slow you down and eat away at your profit margin. I have had more then one customer tell me my rates are to low. However, I cannot justify raising my rates and loosing other customers that are not as well off.
You will have to find that balance in your local economy.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Chuck White

You will have to find that balance in your local economy. [/quote]

I agree with backwoods sawyer 100%!
You'll have to see what others are charging in your area and price yourself accordingly!

Some sawyers in this area charge more for sawing a customers hardwood than they do the softwood!
I don't worry about that primarily because I do mostly pine, with a few hardwood logs every now and then!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Ironwood

Occasionally you will have a "lowball" guy around that is not "offically" in business. No insurance and may not even claim the income (making him 30% more coming out of the gate). They may be retired, or just "having fun" with their mill. No matter what he/ she will cost you jobs and money, FYI

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

metalspinner

From my perspective as a customer, veteran sawyers are worth more per BF because of the efficiencies they have learned over time.  Also the consistant quality of lumber they can produce by knowing how to avoid problems before they happen.  i.e. log tension, grade sawing, log and material handling, etc.

Prices being equal, I'm going with the experienced sawyer. In fact, even if the rookie is a bit cheaper, my confidence in the veteran is worth the extra $$.  I don't acquire many thousands of BF of logs to saw every year.  If the few seleced logs I bring in are miscut through a lack of experience or knowledge, that would make for a frustrating day.

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Magicman

I always saw cedar by the hour.  BF by most other jobs.  You really need to be able to look at the job before quoting prices.  I just missed on one as noted in the "Lumber in the Slab Pile" thread.  I still made money, but that one should have been hourly rate.

I use my contract which is on about page 6 of this forum.  Change it to fit your needs and print off a stack.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ironwood

Boy you aren't kidding on the learning curve. I think even some experienced guys stink. I have seen ALOT of junk lumber, I mean REALLY junk. Talk about robbing the guy paying you. I am not cheap, but I am good ;D

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

bikedude73

Hey Ironwood my sister and brother in law live in greensburg pa. You close to there?

ARKANSAWYER


  Well I might saw alot of junk but at least I am cheap and easy.  ;D  Why most folks say that I am quite pleasent to visit with.   That ought to be worth something.  Given enough time I will get better at sawing.
ARKANSAWYER

Frickman

I do very, very little custom milling of someone else's logs now, but when I did I charged by the board foot, scaled in the log, International 1/4" scale. However you wanted it sawn, I'd saw it. I could easily show the customer how I determined the price and there were no questions. I saw with a stationary circle mill and the customers brought the logs to me and toted the lumber away so I have alot more control over the process than someone who goes portable.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Banjo picker

My Cooks AC 36 will turn out more lumber than a log will scale.  I would end up sawing some of it free if I did that...I don't custom saw much right now either, but that is fixing to change in the near future.  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Warren

I only saw stationary.  but I am with thecefarm, I wait to see what the customer brings me before I make final commitment on saw charges. 

Last year had a farmer who wanted osage logs quartered to make fence posts.  I told him over the phone, nothing shorter than 8 ft, nothing smaller than 10" on small end.  He dropped off a dozen logs while I was away.  When I got home, 10 of the 12 logs were 6 ft long, 6" to 8" on small end, and would have been difficult to square up to make a single decent post. that job went by the hour.   

Other customers show up with a  gooseneck load of slick butt cut oak.  I can easily drop the board foot rate from $0.30/bf to $0.25/bf,  make good on my end AND make them happy that they got a break on the saw charge.

-w-



LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Frickman

Banjo Picker,

I scale in the log to avoid having to scale every board. Many times the customer will back a truck or trailer right up to the mill and we load as we saw. Plus it is very common for the customer to want all kinds of odd sizes of lumber out of their logs. I'm not going to take the time to scale a bunch of inch boards, some 2X material, and a wide assortment of timbers from 4 x 4 to 10 x 10 in lengths from six feet to twenty feet. I just tell them what it will cost and run the logs across the mill. My frick mill will saw faster than I can scale anyway so I just saw a few board feet for free. It's their logs anyway so all I'm giving them is a few minutes of production. Now if I was running a bandmill and sawing uniform sizes and lengths I might scale the boards. With the way I am setup and the logs the customers bring I'm better off scaling in the log.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

beenthere

Frickman
What scale do you use?
Do you use gross scale, or calculate a net scale?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Frickman

beenthere,

I don't know what gross scale and net scale are. I just measure the inside the bark diameter on the small end, measure the length to the nearest foot, and find the volume on the scale stick I use, International 1/4". This is the same procedure I use when buying and selling logs, only I use a different scale then, usually Doyle. It's technically not right, but I will round up on length. If a customer brings a 10' 11" log they get charged for sawing a 11' log. Why? Because we have some local scoundrels that will do anything to try to cheat you out of a buck. If a guy brings a bunch of 8' 2" to 8' 6" logs to get sawn and one happens to be 8' 10" I don't get bent out of shape and still charge him for an 8' log. If he brings a load of 9' 10" logs you can bet I'll scale them as 10'.

The customer always knows ahead of time what I'm charging him and how I'm figuring it and he can take it or leave it. I'll load the logs back on his truck and he can take them somewhere else, I don't care. As I said in an earlier post, I now do very little custom sawing of someone else's logs. I only do it in special cases, usually for good friends and neighbors when I know where the logs came from. I have rarely made good profit custom sawing your logs, I make money sawing my logs. For a commercial circle mill like I run custom sawing is a pain in the behind. I'll let you narrow band mill guys deal with it.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Magicman

Quote from: Frickman on September 27, 2009, 09:53:20 PM
beenthere,
I'll let you narrow band mill guys deal with it.

;D ;D ;D  Likewise, 8' is the shortest lumber that I scale.  If they have 6' logs, I scale them as 8's.  This is covered before the logs are sawed.  The only exception would be "hourly rate".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

beenthere

Frickman
Sounds like you are getting gross scale. 
Net would be if you deducted for volume in the log that didn't saw into lumber....such as a crooked stem or an area of rot or a big hole.   But gross Int'l should be good for what you are doing  (I was wondering if you were sawing based on Doyle scale and losing some money).  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Banjo picker

I have checked many logs that I have sawed before I sawed them with my Logrite 1/4 Int. scale (plug --plug   ;)(any body else got one) and I always come out with 15 % or better more lumber...than the straight scale will say.  If you would squeeze every board you could out it would be even higher...Several board feet in a days time..but it does take a little more time to keep up with...You can load the logs on the deck to help that though if you are cutting different lengths, by putting the same lengths together...I have never checked a whole load to see what the total diff. would be...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Frickman

Been There,

When I am custom sawing I am almost always losing money no matter what scale I use.  :( I use the International scale so i just don't lose as much. Like I mentioned before, I just do it for good friends and neighbors as a community service. Some of those same people do things for me in return. It's almost as if we are bartering except a small amount of money changes hands so we all don't have to keep track of who owes who a favor.

I understand the different scales well. I use Doyle mostly just because it's the standard for our area. The people in the industry all know it and understand it and its limitations. As long as we are all on the same page it works well and our logs prices reflect what the log will actually saw out.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

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