Bad from the start

Sawyerfortyish · September 04, 2009, 01:08:55 AM

About 5 years ago we bought a brand new 56" circle saw blade. The one that came with the mill was made in 1956 it ran ok but we wanted a new one. We got a flyer from our saw shop brand new 56" saws 1450.00 so we bought one. It just never ran right. So we would swap it out and put a differant one on(we have 3)and send it to get hammered. Well this has gone on for 5 years so we sent it to a differant saw shop. Saw doctor calls up and says we have 3 major problems. It was mismanufactured from the factory. The gullets are 20 thousands off center and angled 15 thousands towards the log and the hole in the center is almost a 1/4" off center. He said our other saw Doctor hammered it right but there's no way to correctly hammer this saw to run true. He also said we should hang the blade out front for sign >:(. After 5 years there's little we can do about the blade. Just kinda pees ya off ya buy new so you don't get anyone elses problem and still get stuck.

Ron Wenrich · September 04, 2009, 05:44:24 AM

I had problems with a Hoe saw, and they made it right even after a few years. The saw doc went to bat for me on that one. I had a relatively new saw develop a crack. That one was only good for a sign, and it was the only saw I ever had that cracked.

Right now my problem is saw bits. I'm busting them off, especially in harder wood. Its not the same tooth, so I can't blame that. I'm not sure if its the saw or the bits. I'm not happy with Simond bits, but that's all you can buy. They certainly don't keep an edge like they used to. I'll try from a different batch and see if that doesn't make a difference.

Sawyerfortyish · September 04, 2009, 07:09:12 AM

I've noticed some new bits arn't even square they are on an angle. Simonds quality has a lot to be desired.

bandmiller2 · September 04, 2009, 07:10:06 AM

Sawyer,thats a manufacturing defect,call the co. and talk to the owner.We all swim in a small pond any manuf.would not want word getting around of that defect,at the very least a big discount on a new blade.Oh I would use the sharp doc that found the problem to do my pounding. Ron W. I think you got a bad run of bits,call Simonds and complain,its hard to talk tough when their the only game in town,but your a gentleman and very likely they will send you anouther box.All my contacts in Fitchburg are living with God now.I am surprised Hong Kong Harry hasen't started to forge out bits,guess we're just a drop in the bucket.Frank C.

bandmiller2 · September 04, 2009, 07:37:11 AM

Ron W. thinking about the bit problem,I would save the rest of that box and broken pieces if possible, next show you go to bring it to the Simonds booth.Those rascals are on their best behavior at shows I'm sure they will do more than give you a pen.Entirely possible that lot had defects probibly forged too cold with hairline cracking.Frank C.

Meadows Miller · September 04, 2009, 08:29:01 AM

Gday

Im with Frank on this one Mate ;) it is a small pond Mate ;D its even smaller overhere theres only about 1800 fulltime mills in Aust word gets around pretty quick if your not doing the rite thing ???

:

Send er back to where it came from they shoudnt have even sent it out of the factory Like that for a Start

:

Pitty it took 5 years to sort out what the issues where ??? But Us Sawmillers Optimistic Fellas & allways Try to make the best outa a bad situation dont we Mate

???

:P :

;) :D :D ;D

Ron with the bits (

Bad Batch I think :

) do what Frank said and just say Id like to Exchange These Mate :( ;) ;D

Regards Chris

Jeff · September 04, 2009, 08:47:48 AM

I dont know why you wouldn't be able to get some satisfaction from the company on that sort of defect. Its certainly not something that wore into the saw, it was there from day one. It took a professional saw man to eventually find it, and now that its been found, the manufacturer should be responsible. That's a lot of wasted money over the years. I'm sure the associated costs in lost production and aggravation far out weigh the original cost of the saw.

Ron Wenrich · October 20, 2009, 09:35:44 PM

Well, it seems that Simonds has changed how they make teeth. They seem to be cutting corners. I've been having some major problems with teeth. They just won't stay sharp. I used to be able to saw poplar all day on a sharpening, now only get a few hours. Oak is down to one hour. This is on the long style tooth.

So, when the mill supply man arrived, I told him that the teeth are junk, especially those made after May of this year. It turns out that a lot of customers are having problems. They won't stay sharp. He said the regular teeth seem to work.

In the meantime, I had some metallurgy tests run on their teeth. The guy who is helping me out on this used to make drill bits for De Beers, so he's pretty sharp. He keeps on talking about decarburization. It has to do with the heat treating process.

I had tests run on a brand new tooth, and one run on an old tooth from an old saw. The Rockwell on both teeth was 53 for the core. But, the outside edges on the new teeth is only 38. That is really soft. That's why the teeth aren't holding up. For a comparison, a file has a Rockwell rating of 60.

My solution has been to go over to chrome teeth. They are holding up much better. But, they use those soft teeth underneath the chrome. My friend says that if their process isn't changed, their chrome teeth will also have problems.

The other solution has been to do another heat treat on some teeth and bring the Rockwell hardness up to about 57. I haven't tried these teeth yet. He's afraid that they might be brittle. I'll put a few in the saw just to see how they work out before I go to a full set.

There are also other bits made in China by a company named Bitco. They are poorly manufactured, and are the only competition for Simonds in the world. At this rate, there won't be any circle mills left. Although my friend says that those teeth could be manufactured using a casting system.

Tom · October 20, 2009, 09:44:56 PM

If they were to use a castrating system, I bet the teeth would get good real quick. :D

I've heard of freezing tools to get longer life. Do you think it would work on teeth?

DanG · October 20, 2009, 10:15:33 PM

I've had a problem with defective bits too. I can see the difference in the metallurgy between the old and the new before I ever use them. The new ones won't cut cherry without breaking.

Ron Wenrich · October 21, 2009, 05:34:35 AM

I suggested the cryogenics treat. But, my friend is big into heat treating. He says he can control the carbon in the steel, and the hardness. If this batch is too hard, he can bring it back. I don't think he has too much experience with the cryo treat.

DanG

What brand of insert teeth do you use? What's the date on the box? Cherry isn't that hard of a wood. I did have a good deal of breakage with one box, but my shanks were new and very tight. I'm not sure if that contributed to my problems.

bandmiller2 · October 21, 2009, 06:48:29 AM

Probibly Simonds is having trouble with their heat treat,probibly the guy that did it retired and sonny boy hasn't quite got its range yet.Unless Simonds has changed the quality of the steel they forge into bits.Ron do you file or grind your bits??I would let your friend reheat treat some bits to try,or switch to carbide tips.I'am glad I have a good supply of the old bits from back in the eightys.Frank C.

sparky · October 21, 2009, 02:20:37 PM

When did to problem with the teeth begin? I have been using Simonds, long, chrome, teeth with no problems. When cutting red pine, I sharpen once a day at most. Usually less often. My supply of teeth is at least 3 years old. I guess I will stock up on teeth if I can find ones that were made before the trouble started.

Sparky

Jeff · October 21, 2009, 02:46:56 PM

Simonds manufacturing quality began to suffer at least 5 years ago. I started getting mismanufactured teeth back when I was sawing. it got to the point I would save out a change out of probably 10-15 boxes and send em back to the saw shop. 9/32 regulars. Not ground right, miscast, just shoddy workmanship in my opinion. I didn't seem to have a problem with hardness though. As far as I am concerned, carbides are not an option for a head rig in a high production situation where you saw hundreds of logs a day that may range from clean and debarked, to muddy and not so debarked. In a vertical edger maybe.

Reddog · October 21, 2009, 03:07:11 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2009, 05:34:35 AM
I suggested the cryogenics treat. But, my friend is big into heat treating. He says he can control the carbon in the steel, and the hardness. If this batch is too hard, he can bring it back.

Ron, He is right.
Cryo will not fix bad steel or mis heat treated parts.
Those things have to be right before Cryo. If you had good teeth the Cryo might gain you some extra mileage.
We used it to treat forging dies and did see increased production volumes.

There are some industrial coatings that would increase the tool life. but the draw back to them is every time you sharpened them them would need to be sent out for re-coating. So you would need to keep matched sets of teeth and just change out the teeth.

Wally

Gary_C · October 21, 2009, 04:08:21 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 20, 2009, 09:35:44 PM
In the meantime, I had some metallurgy tests run on their teeth. The guy who is helping me out on this used to make drill bits for De Beers, so he's pretty sharp. He keeps on talking about decarburization. It has to do with the heat treating process.

What he is probably refering to is a process called "pack carburization." You take a relatively low carbon steel and heat it up with carbon packed around the area you want to be harder. It was commonally used for crankshafts where you wanted a relatively low carbon and tough core and a much harder surface like the journal where the wear takes place. I don't know if that process is still being used as I thing there are faster and cheaper methods now.

But if that was being done right the core should be lower in hardness and the surface much harder. If your numbers are right, the tooth you tested is backwards and no good.

If you plan to heat treat and harden, the entire tooth will be either hard or soft. I don't think that will be good either.

Ron Wenrich · October 21, 2009, 04:43:47 PM

Nope, he was talking about decarburization. Its the opposite of carurization. The problem is that it ends up effecting the steel like rust. It flakes off. Here's a fairly easy to understand explanation.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-decarburization.htm

I did put in one of the heat treated teeth. It was brought up to 57 Rockwell, and is too hard. A file just skids off of it. So, we're going to try to take it back to 53 and see how that holds up. The hardness will be through the tooth.

The chrome are holding up really well. My production went up 10% back to what it was when teeth were good. I'm sharpening once a day in red oak, and then it really isn't dull. After you remove the chrome from the face of the tooth, you can use a hand file. I had stopped using them because the corners would break off. But, it seems the quality has improved since my last usage on a head saw.

I wouldn't even consider carbide. Its too expensive, and as soon as you hit some trash, they're toast. I do know of a few small mills that use them. But, it hasn't worked its way up to the mid-sized and larger mills.

The trouble has been going on in the long bits for about a year. They started fooling around with their process in order to save money. I believe you'll find that it probably mirrors the cost of energy. As energy costs went up, their quality of teeth went down, or at least it seems.

Reddog · October 21, 2009, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
A file just skids off of it. So, we're going to try to take it back to 53 and see how that holds up.

To be able to file the tooth, you may need to be down more in the low 40's range of Rockwell C scale.
If we where heat treating some thing to file fit, we would shoot for 38-42 RC at the highest.

Gary_C · October 21, 2009, 06:12:04 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Nope, he was talking about decarburization. Its the opposite of carurization.

Not exactly. Carburization is a PROCESS to add carbon to steel to make it hardenable and improve the properties. Decarburization is a DEFECTIVE CONDITION found in steel. It is not really a process as much a measurement of a defect. Though it does say that some may intentionally cause decarburization, I don't know why some one would intentionally cause a defect in steel.

So what the guy was describing was just very poor process control in the manufacture of the steel. It is just neglience and not cost cutting.

There is an ASTM method of measuring the amount of decarburization if that is indeed the case. You could have that checked and then use that against them if they do not make the problems right.

Ron Wenrich · October 21, 2009, 07:42:45 PM

Decarb on the new teeth is .007" while the old teeth it was .0055". That's per side. It doesn't sound like much.

Rockwell for the core is 53, and that files fine.

Dave Shepard · October 21, 2009, 08:25:05 PM

Gary, what you describe as pack hardening is also called case hardening. That is one way blacksmiths could make a low quality steel from wrought iron and carbon in the form of bone, hair etc.

logwalker · October 21, 2009, 09:44:27 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
I did put in one of the heat treated teeth. It was brought up to 57 Rockwell, and is too hard. A file just skids off of it. So, we're going to try to take it back to 53 and see how that holds up. The hardness will be through the tooth.

What if you left a set at 57R and used a small hand grinder to sharpen them. They might work for a long time. I will say though I have no experience with a set tooth blade.

Ron Wenrich · October 22, 2009, 05:37:51 AM

Part of the plan is to find if we can get an acceptable tooth from the junk that is being made. Its not just us having the problem. Then, we can put this on our distributor, and the info put out to other mills. Many guys will grind, but some of us grind, then scrape with a file. To me, an acceptable tooth is one that stays sharp for a reasonable amount of time, and can be hand filed.

If we can't get that with heat treating, then I'll just throw them into the edger and wear them down like that. I don't hand file edger teeth.

bandmiller2 · October 23, 2009, 02:45:21 PM

Ron, please tell us more about those bitco bits is the material poor or just the machining,who sells them??Seems in this big world theirs enough room for more manufacturers of mill bits,its scarry to depend on so few.Frank C.

Ron Wenrich · October 23, 2009, 04:23:03 PM

I got the information from my mill supply company. They said Bitco is made in China. A rep came up and tried to sell them bits. They said that for most mills, they would only have one shot at getting them to the mill. If the mill didn't like them, they would never try them again. That's a pretty accurate assessment of the mill thinking in my area.

The Bitco rep said they thought they had a good product. The problem came from poor manufacturing. Bits were made that were off center by as much as .020. That would mean that the bits would either be too far right or too far left. They were mixed throughout the box, so your finish would be off on the boards.

But, some boxes were hardened right and some were just too soft. Guys were going through a set of teeth in a day, they were that soft. So, Bitco isn't in our area anymore.

I agree that there's a marketplace for another bit manufacturer.