iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Bulletproof "Razor tip" blades

Started by RENOV8R, September 03, 2009, 10:17:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RENOV8R

Apologizing in advance in case this has been covered recently, but I searched the last few pages and didn't see anything relevant, so here goes...  -The new blades WM is selling-  what's the deal?  I've been having this amish guy set and sharpen my blades for the last 2 years and the 4 of the 10 I just sent him have broken on me!  Previous to this I'd only ever had one break since '05.  I haven't told him about it yet, cuz I've been pretty busy w/my full time job and only saw on Saturdays, but I digress...  I had my wife(secretary) call in to WM and ask about the blades that I saw on their web site.  She tells me they said they last 3x longer, but they're $85?  $90?  I got spoiled w/my black hat-wearin' friend sharpening and setting for $7/pc.  I wanna hear from you guys.  And by the way...this is my second post and I have to say  THANK YOU EVERYONE and THANK YOU FF for this venue, because I wouldn't know what a "WM" is, wouldn't know the difference between heartwood and sapwood and so much more.  The FF and all you log jockeys piping up everyday are truly, truly a great wealth of knowledge!  Ok, now that I'm done pandering,what's the jury say about the new "Razortip" blades from WM

pigman

If you look down in the Wood-Mizer section of the Sponser News board you will see some information on the new blades.
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

WH_Conley

Welcome aboard buddy.

Don't know as I can help. I sharpen my own. How many times have those blades been sharpened? Is your black hat friend been grinding the gullet?

I have always tried to use the "newest and best" blades, have found that out of a "box" of ten, about three will break on the third or fourth sharpening, the rest will last about eight sharpenings.

As far as the new high priced blades, I have no idea.

Clear as mud?

Pretty sure somebody will be along that has more info than I do.
Bill

WH_Conley

Bill

ladylake

 I've been running Simonds for years and had good blade life untill I got 1 box of 10 and every one broke after the 1st sharpening, after that it was back to normal.  I quess the manufactors can send out a bad batch once in a while..   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Bibbyman

In case you've not found the info on the new Wood-Mizer Razer-Tip blades here is a link.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,36000.0.html

Here is a link to the Wood-Mizer web site about them..

http://www.woodmizerblades.com/bladeTypes/stellite/stellite.aspx

We bought one at the last forestry show we attended but have not used it yet.

I suspect it'll be welcome news for some users but most of us will do well with their Double Hard blades.

You didn't say how many sharpenings the blades have been through or how dull you've run them between sharpenings but I'd think you got a pretty normal life out of them. When they start to go, they all tend to go near the same time.


Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

bandmiller2

The Bibster just nailed it,that lot of bands aged togather and after so many sharpenings will tend to fail togather.Before you send them out to be sharpened check them over in good light you can pick out the cracks just starting if you see even the slightest crack , band junk.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

ladylake

 Sounds to me like they're failing early, if not a bad batch of blades it would be time to check your mill over.  Worn v belts will make them pop fast, guide roller adjustment or bearing etc.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Bibbyman

Just a long comment - for what it's worth.

At $7.00 per blade to have the Amish resharp a blade is the same as what Wood-Mizer charges.  But then you add on shipping and sometimes a new box or inserts and the price goes up to around $9.00/blade.

The last box I had WM resharp cost me $8.88 each.  But they come back bright, clean and lightly oiled and ready to saw.  Although I don't send back damaged or cracked blades if I see them,  they will kick out any that I missed.  They will also not sharpen those that have been sharpened so many times they are too narrow – thus ready to blow.

I tried the Amish route too.  I ran across an Amish pallet part factory that would sharpen blades for people for $3.00 ea.  A bargain hard to pass up even thought they were 90 miles from home.  I took a box of 15 up to try them out.  They guy said he could get to them in a couple of weeks.  He did and gave me a call that they were ready.   (They don't have phones but he got someplace to use a phone.)  I went back up with 30 more blades and picked these up.  He let me know that he decided to go up to $4.00/ blade on the next batch.  Still quite a bargain so I left them.  It was just after the first of the month so I said I'd just come back next month right after the first and bring more and pick these up.  Ok.

We sawed with the blades he sharpened and they did fine.  A couple wouldn't cut well but... for the price ... I couldn't kick too much.  They were not cleaned and it didn't look like they'd been set even though he said he'd set them.  I've sharpened our blades for years before ReSharp service and know you can't set a blade right without cleaning and de-burring them and these were neither.

I returned a month later and he was not there.  My blades were not sharpened but the guy in charge said he'd have them in a week or two.  I told him we'd be back in two weeks.  Came back in two weeks and he still didn't have them sharpened. (Half day and 180 miles each trip.) Said he was way behind and had no time.  But another Amish mill down the road would sharpen them. 

I took the blades down to the other Amish guy and we set up about the same arrangement – drop them off and be back in so many weeks.  We came back and they were done.  These too where not cleaned and didn't look set even though he said they were.  After the second time they had sharpened and supposedly set them,  I began to notice they were not cutting well.  When I'd put a new WM blade on the mill or one that they had re-sharpened the difference was obvious.

We picked up our last blades from the Amish sharpener and have been using them for nail cutters then throwing them away.  We've went back to Wood-Mizer resharp because even at $4.00/blade, the loss in production was not worth it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

sparks

The key to keeping blades from breaking is the gullet. Blades, as they go around the wheels, bend and flex and very small cracks can form in the gullet. If the guy you have sharpening them is only doing the tips then the cracks are still in the gullet and the blade could break on the next run. If someone sharpens your blades you better ask how they do them. If they do not do the entire blade you are wasting your money. Resharp puts your blades back to the way they wee new. Sometimes they even cut better than new.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

backwoods sawyer

Quote from: sparks on September 04, 2009, 02:55:06 PM
The key to keeping blades from breaking is the gullet. Blades, as they go around the wheels, bend and flex and very small cracks can form in the gullet. If the guy you have sharpening them is only doing the tips then the cracks are still in the gullet and the blade could break on the next run. If someone sharpens your blades you better ask how they do them. If they do not do the entire blade you are wasting your money. Resharp puts your blades back to the way they wee new. Sometimes they even cut better than new.
"Bingo"
In addition to the gullet is the alignment of the mill.
When I first brought my mill home, I took it out and milled up about 10,000 bft of nice soft red cedar.  The mill came with 14 saws and I ordered a box of .045 10* and a box of .055 10*. By the end of the third day of milling, every one of the 14 used saws had broken. I was glad to see that the UPS driver had delivered the two boxes of saws. The .045 saw would not cut a straight line no mater the feed speed. The .055 were cutting straight but three of those broke before I finished that job. When I brought the mill down off that mountain, I went thru and realigned the wheels, replaced the angled guide rollers, realigned the guide arm, aligned the saw to the bed, rebuilt the tensioner. Along with installing the missing auto clutch motor and a whole list of other repairs.  After that, the saws started having good run time between saw changes. I took the first batch of saws to the local saw shop and the first saw I put on dove 6". I looked the saw over and found that every one of the tips of the teeth had been burnt, and a rough wheel had been used to sharpen the saw. When the saw shop would not stand behind his work, I ordered the parts to get the basket case of a saw sharpener that came with the mill running again. Now I run my saws until the first sign of getting dull, usually that is an increase in the feed control to maintain the same feed rate. I set the teeth each time and grind the whole profile of the tooth. I also oil the saw before hanging it up to keep it from developing surface rust.
I might ad that the person I bought my mill from told me not to use oil or grease anything because it would attract sawdust. I come from the other side of the fence on that subject, Use the right lube for the application and do it often. I would rather have oil soaked sawdust then water soaked sawdust on my mill.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

ladylake

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on September 04, 2009, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: sparks on September 04, 2009, 02:55:06 PM
The key to keeping blades from breaking is the gullet. Blades, as they go around the wheels, bend and flex and very small cracks can form in the gullet. If the guy you have sharpening them is only doing the tips then the cracks are still in the gullet and the blade could break on the next run. If someone sharpens your blades you better ask how they do them. If they do not do the entire blade you are wasting your money. Resharp puts your blades back to the way they wee new. Sometimes they even cut better than new.
"Bingo"
In addition to the gullet is the alignment of the mill.
When I first brought my mill home, I took it out and milled up about 10,000 bft of nice soft red cedar.  The mill came with 14 saws and I ordered a box of .045 10* and a box of .055 10*. By the end of the third day of milling, every one of the 14 used saws had broken. I was glad to see that the UPS driver had delivered the two boxes of saws. The .045 saw would not cut a straight line no mater the feed speed. The .055 were cutting straight but three of those broke before I finished that job. When I brought the mill down off that mountain, I went thru and realigned the wheels, replaced the angled guide rollers, realigned the guide arm, aligned the saw to the bed, rebuilt the tensioner. Along with installing the missing auto clutch motor and a whole list of other repairs.  After that, the saws started having good run time between saw changes. I took the first batch of saws to the local saw shop and the first saw I put on dove 6". I looked the saw over and found that every one of the tips of the teeth had been burnt, and a rough wheel had been used to sharpen the saw. When the saw shop would not stand behind his work, I ordered the parts to get the basket case of a saw sharpener that came with the mill running again. Now I run my saws until the first sign of getting dull, usually that is an increase in the feed control to maintain the same feed rate. I set the teeth each time and grind the whole profile of the tooth. I also oil the saw before hanging it up to keep it from developing surface rust.
I might ad that the person I bought my mill from told me not to use oil or grease anything because it would attract sawdust. I come from the other side of the fence on that subject, Use the right lube for the application and do it often. I would rather have oil soaked sawdust then water soaked sawdust on my mill.


  You must been ready to jump off the cliff after a start like that.  When I got that bad box I broke 4 in a half hour all after the 1st sharpening. I was ready to jump too.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

solidwoods

I've run Simmonds red streak for 17yrs.
I've never had a bad batch but one of my customers just had a group of 10ea. 3/4" space 1.25" wide break at the weld after 1 sharpening. 
I suggested he call the mfr. and talk to them about it.  Things happen and mfrs. want to know how their work is doing.  Maybe an new employee is not annealing the weld correctly?
Same customer also says he has a group of Simmonds  and a group of Woodmizer blades, and when he switches blades (brands) on the mill, the blade tracking will be way off.  I've never heard that one.

I'm not a fan of tooth face sharpening.  It creates a step in the profile of the gullet (v.s. 1 smooth arc)  and it makes the tooth narrower and narrower.
What I suggest to people that have a face only sharpener is sharpen it once, then send it to a full gullet sharpener .
jim
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

ladylake

   I've been running Simonds for 7 years with just that one bad box and it was the blades for sure, I bought a box of 3/4 " Simonds and a box of Lennox right after that without changing anything on the mill and had no trouble with them breaking. Couldn't cut a good with the Lennox as with the Simonds so I'm back to Simonds 7/8 that are running real good.  A couple are down to 1" wide they've been sharpened so much.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Magicman

After I bought my LT40, I used the same sharpening guy that the previous saw owner used.  I was new a sawing, but I noticed freshly sharpened bands doing "funny" stuff.  One day, when I picked a box of bands up, he said; "help me keep up with when I "set" your bands.  I set them every other time I sharpen them"......

Well, I had been reading about Re-Sharp Service.  They clean them, set them, sharpen them, and then reset them again.  I have never driven up to the resharpen guy's place again.  I just box them up and take then to the UPS store.   They always come back like new.....For the same price that I was paying "that other guy".

The Razer-Tip blades look interesting.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

RENOV8R

Bibbyman, I thought I had the cat by the tail with my Amish secret weapon, but yes...I'll get some of my blades back from (Let's call him "Jeb") and seems like 3 out of 10 don't have set to them, and the ones that do, are spittin' out sawdust like nobody's business eatin' up about ¼" it seemed.  Each time I use Jeb, the set is all over the road.  I've been to the WM open houses and get togethers and heard the Q & A sessions about the blades and kind of took them with a grain of salt only because they have a business to run, etc...  well, I think Jeb's only saving grace now is the turn around time. 
Oh!  The sharpenings!  I was asked how many sharpenings  I had on my blades that had broke.  Yeeeaaaahhh, I suppose this has probably been discussed in some previous posts also, but I have yet to set up a system for how many times a blade has been sharpened.  I will attempt to get some pictures on here(cuz we all love pictures) of the "system" I do have.  Incidentally, I had received 2 blades from Timberwolf and for the life of me, could not get those 2 to track right.
Thank you,   everyone for the input.  Very good points!  I am honored by replies from the masters.
Anyone that has used the new blades,  I'd like to hear what you have to say about them.  I had called in to WM and the rep explains  to me that they last up to 3x longer, but also a bit more expensive.  I'm all for the price if it is a good trade off.  What that means to all of us  if that holds true, is more blade time in the wood and less down-time for blade changes.  (More value for the customer).

logwalker

Question for Sparks, do they set the teeth on the stellite blades or just depend on the width of the tooth to provide set? Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

WH_Conley

I think, RENOV8R has a point. I aint "Jeb" I don't really want to sharpen blades, I will for neighbors. The hard thing about setting is the rust. If I can get blades that are wiped down, clean, I will set them. If they have rust , the best I will try is to grind them. No set, you are on your own.
Bill

backwoods sawyer

Quote from: RENOV8R on September 10, 2009, 04:59:09 PM
Oh!  The sharpenings!  I was asked how many sharpenings  I had on my blades that had broke. 
Incidentally, I had received 2 blades from Timberwolf and for the life of me, could not get those 2 to track right.
If you are having trouble with the timber wolf bands not tracking, then that could also have something to do with your bands braking prematurely. I would still work on improving the sharpening system while you look into why the Timberwolf are not tracking.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

ladylake

 The only blades that didn't track right for me were a couple of Cooks supersharp that I tried, they tracked about 3/16" of a inch farther ahead which was easy to adjust back to where it should be.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

sparks

logwalker.......they set the teeth after every sharpening.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

ladylake

Dont rule out that bad batch, it does happen. If not that does your blade track the same turning both directions, it should if adjusted right.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Thank You Sponsors!