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One Marker or Two ?

Started by Gary_C, August 31, 2009, 02:42:51 AM

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Gary_C

There is an old saying about a man with one watch always knowing what time it is, but a man with two is never quite sure. The same is sure true about surveying and boundaries.

On the job I am working on, I came across this as I was marking a fence line. I was painting fence posts with blue paint when I came across this USGS survey marker. There is a pin right in front of the sign marking a section corner.





But if you look to the left in the picture, you can see another faint blue marker that I also painted blue. It is an older pipe marker that marks the same corner but about 42 feet from the newer pin.

So what happens when you have two locations for one point?
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SwampDonkey

Gary, could the one further ahead be marking the corner of your lot and the one closest be marking a common corner of two adjacent lots to it, one in front of the other?




Do you have an up to date local map with adjacent properties marked? And can you get the Lat/Long position of the corners of your lot?
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Ron Wenrich

It could be an inline corner, as Swamp has described.  Or it could be a matter of new technology applied to old deed descriptions.

I had a timber sale that the landowner had a survey prior to the sale.  The surveyor walked us around the land.  When we got to some corners, we came across some large stone piles.  The surveyor proudly announced that he didn't know what those stone piles were, but he established the corners in a different location.  I knew those old stone piles were the original corners.  The surveyor was quite confident that he could defend that in court.

The original deed for the property was in the late 1700s.  At that time, those guys were running compass and an actual steel chain.  Depending on the time of year, those chains would be different lengths due to temperature.  If you take that old equipment bearings and use lasers, you'll end up with different locations due to technology.

I also remember not being able to find a corner when I worked with BLM in Oregon.  The forester working with me said he would do a compass and pace.  He walked up onto the corner that we couldn't find.  Apparently, some of those original corners were established using compass and pace.
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pasbuild

The common line between my neighbor and I over lap 5½' on the back corner, we both pay tax's on it ::)
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jrdwyer

42' between monuments would, in almost all cases, be different corners.

The original PLSS surveys in our area were actually quite good considering they used a staff compass and steel tape or chain. When I was working in land surveying, we retraced some original monuments and found errors as little as 1:5,000. In other words, approx. 1 foot off per mile. Modern equipment will give you errors of 1:100,000 or better, or approx. 0.05' per mile. So even at a worst case of 1:1,000 in error, you are only looking at around 5' per mile.

Most of the NGS monuments we "shot" were used for vertical control. It is more common for horizontal monuments to be set or recovered by county surveyors or private land surveyors and proven with ties (measurements) to other known section or quarter section monuments and recorded at the county courthouse.

One of the problems that arises in land surveying is that jobs are often bid very competitively and it (the price) does not always leave enough time to properly break down a section and  research and recover all the original monuments. A good land surveyor will do all the necessary work and just take a loss if they misjudged the time commitment necessary. A few land surveyors will cut corners to get the job done on time and with a profit and this discrepancy will show itself in court cases pitting one land survey against another.

Ron Scott

Gary,

Are you sure that the USGS marker is a survey corner and not a Benchmark marker which is used as an elevation marker for topographic survey or a point of reference? Such are USGS markers rather than landline survey markers.
~Ron

logwalker

It could also be a reference marker to shoot the angle. I use them to establish my lines. But I am just an amateur.
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Gary_C

I did not look close at the markers as it did not affect me on this job. The two markers are in the property line and in line with the boundary between the MN DNR land on the far side and private property on the near side. In this case the land both left and right of both markers is the same ownership. I have permission from the private landowner for the land where I was standing to cross his land to access the state land and also my landing is on the private land.

The private landowner had asked me to not remove the old steel fence posts as he did not trust the DNR to leave the boundary where it is and with good reason. The DNR Forester in that area has been known to move boundaries to suit the states needs. I was just painting all the steel posts with blue paint as much to keep from running one thru a tire rather than marking the boundaries.

That boundary line is about 50 yards from the edge of the bluff and runs up the side of the bluff. It is about 300 feet down to the Mississippi River below. So it is not too much to imagine the original survey was in error and that is what everyone says about the two markers. Here is a picture taken at the far side of the state land where the bluff ends:





That view is looking generally north towards Wabasha, MN.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

BaldBob

Under the Federal Land Survey laws (which , as far as I know all states follow) - If the old corner is truly the section corner established in the original government cadastral survey, it takes precedence over any later established corner, regardless of whether or not the original was established with errors or with inaccurate equipment.

Ron Wenrich

I'm pretty sure that's the precedent on private lands here in the East.  Sometimes deeds aren't written out quite right.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Sometimes the spruce tree referenced to is long gone to.  :D

But, yeah I'd have to agree that the surveys follow the old evidence. In this regions every farm had a cedar rail fence. I have found old rail fence on once cleared land that now have 70 foot tall softwood on it. The fence is still there.  ;D Some old timers even strung page wire down through the woods, even in places that don't look like it was cleared. Most these farms are no more than 150 - 180 years old around here. Older farms are down near the coast, some still with 400 year old dike boards in the sand.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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JDeere

I do a lot of surveying in my engineering business but I do not consider myself a boundary surveyor. However, from my college surveying and survey law classes it was always taught that the job of a surveyor is to follow in the foot steps of the original surveyor. The technology we use today is certainly far superior to what was used even 25 years ago but it is not intended to be used to move original monuments. In determining a property line or corner the most important factor is an original monument. The fact that the distance called for in an old deed is off a few inches or feet would never justify moving it. Surveyors use a hierarchy of evidence to establish corners and property lines. However, bearings and distances called out in a deed are far down the list. The fact is that even with all the new technology there is still a lot of art in the science of surveying.
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Gary_C

This past week I looked at the markers to find out more. The one just faintly visible on the left in the picture is about a 2 1/2" pipe with a domed cap and is identified as a momument with the section and range on the top. The small pin just in front of the post is labeled as a Minnesota DNR marker. I can assume that sometime after the state acquired the land, they did a survey with modern equipment and found the original monument to be in error. So they just marked the "correct" point with their own marker. Since there is no change of ownership at that section corner, or at least on their side, they left it at that.

I was on another tract owned by the state in the next valley west of there and there was apparently an error on that property also. The state has their marker about 50 feet out in someone's pasture on the west side and apparently planted some trees on private land on the north boundary. Apparently nothing has been done about the error except make the adjacent landowners mad for "moving" the boundaries. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

Now, I wonder how those landowners get compensated for lost acreage and tax? I would challenge it if I was one of those owners. I bet they'd win to. I have seen a certain forest company move lines all the time. They have gained some ground and lost some other. Most lots here are not kept up with markings, so there is less challenge from adjacent owners. Even if there was a blazed line kept for decades, sometimes the line moves. On the back of my uncle's lot the line was always kept painted by the previous forest company, they sold and almost the next day the new company went out and moved the line. My uncle gained about 30 feet.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

gemniii

Picture this: A large oxbow in the river, out in the boonies, with the loop of the bow indenting on the west.  Ownership on both sides runs to the thalweg of the river. On the west side is a timber company, on the east private land owners but nobody lives nearby.  Oxbow covers at least several acres.  Timber company comes in and cuts the oxbow off.  Further downstream they "enhance or maintain" an oxbow indenting to the east, to ensure it doesn't "cut off" naturally.
Good way to gain land without paying.  After about 10 years it's hard to tell the first bow was cut thru and the second one dug out.
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Bill H

The Survey is on the ground and the deed is the map to find the marks(monuments) the original surveyor left to permanantly define what he surveyed. So the original monument called for in the deed rules. I can take my modern equipment and measure around 100 acres twice and get different numbers, but you can't argue with a 100+ year old pile of rocks, they are the corner. What happens is one surveyor goes out and sticks his pin and cap in the ground and doesn't look around for the original monument, or the surveyor is a better measurer than the last guy and sticks in a pin. We call these pin cushion corners and all they cause are lawsuits. If the surveyor didn't go to the original monument he will lose in court. Bill
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WH_Conley

That's kinda where I am at now on a boundry line. My deed calls for a chestnut oak tree, it is there, hack marks and all. Whoever marked the line for the company adjoining me just started smearing paint. Surveyor I hired says it is mine, lawyer says it is mine. Still waiting to hear from the other people.
Bill

Magicman

I'd take a picture of that Chesnut Oak e/w GPS reading and file it with the deed, etc. for future generations.  I'm doing that on all of my corners and other distinguishing marks.  I've walked the property lines with my son and two grandsons so that they will be familiar with the boundry lines.
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madhatte

I have run into this kind of boundary dispute any number of times.  In one case, the County, State, and Federal cadastral data disagreed with the monument by more than 50' in three different directions, even though the GIS layers were all projected in the same map datum and coordinate system!  What seems to work the best is the "common-law" approach -- if there's a fence corner or monument or other permanent marker which has "traditionally" been used as a boundary, it becomes the de facto "true" monument.  If there's further dispute, it'll have to be handled by lawyers, not by surveyors or foresters. 

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