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TF: Is it ok to work on post/beam slowly over the time?

Started by wkheathjr, August 30, 2009, 08:43:28 AM

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wkheathjr

I was wondering that if you were tight on a budget and can do few post/beam/girds/joist/etc a month- would it hurt the result of raising it?  What I mean is that suppose I need to do say about 40 or 60 of them but can do probably 6-10 a month then that would take 6-8 months to complete (longer if some crazy situation pop up).  The woods that was worked on in first month would probably be dried up and probably shrink a little bit?  Or can this be avoided if you use the hardwood rather than to use softwood? 

Any comment or suggestion?

beenthere

They will shrink as they dry (both hard and soft) and move some. You will prolly find out which ones are going to move a lot, and may have to re-do a few to make the final fitting (may have to recut a few too, but you will have the advantage that they are not in the the TF when they do).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

wkheathjr

Hmm.. think it might be a good idea to put off the peg hole until it is almost time to raise and inspect all timbers that has been cut to ensure they will be okay prior to drilling peg hole??

And what would you do with timbers that shrunk "misbehave"?  Put it aside and save it for future project just in case it might come in hand?

Brad_bb

If you use seasoned (dry) wood like reclaim, you shouldn't have a problem as it's already dry.  Also don't forget to seal your endgrain with a sealer like anchor seal or other similar wax based sealant.  Depending on what you want and how much you want to search, there are some deals out there.  In the past couple years, after keeping my eyes out, I've picked up a bunch of white pine reclaim for under .60 a BF, and hardwood for .90 a board foot.  This is much different from some reclaim companies that charge $3.00 BF and up for reclaim.  They also sometimes have the labor of recovering it, and possibly recutting it involved plus profit, which is understandable.  My deals have been from people who already had the material down already, and need to get rid of it for space or whatever. If you can afford to buy the reclaim at the higher prices, you might have more choice of what you want, or be able to get what you want more quickly.   With seasoned timber, you can drill all the peg holes, or at least drill the mortise and wait until raising time to drill the tennons, whatever makes you comfortable.  I purchased oak brace stock from a mill early on, so by the time I go to cut them, they'll be dry.  It is a bit little more work to work dry timber than green timber, but accepting that allows me to build mine over time like you.   
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

swampfox

good points about waiting to drill tenons,

I would say drill all pegholes no matter what state of the wood. (From an order of operations, this makes sense as well) Then as stated, drill the tenons at fit-up.  I see more of a problem possibly with tenons becoming checked or some other movement that doesn't allow them to fit into the mortise as easy.  Or bearing surfaces surrounding the mortises that aren't in a single plane anymore.  Both probably from checking.  Easy enough to fix both with a good plane.

Both of these instances, would be present from the wood shrinking more in the radial direction.  Longitudinal shrinking would be minimal, and
in my opinion, not worth worrying about.

It would think that all timbers would be able to fit after time, and if there is one that has done something to the extreme, its susceptibility would have been noticed before the process of lay-out, cut.

designate your timbers thoughtfully.  if you are worried about one bowing a little, use it as a girt.  The post that has three different joints at three different levels, well choose accordingly.

In short, I think it makes good sense to do what you are doing.

Jim_Rogers

In the past, I held workshop here at my sawmill yard.

I taught students of all ages how to do timber framing. We had classes every other Saturday, year round so that they didn't have to give up any regular work-time.

To do a frame like this, it took 18 months from the first timber to raising day.

We would hold off of drilling any peg holes until we did the full frame fit-up process, which was done within two weeks of the raising day.

I found that pre-drilling holes through the mortise would distort over time, and would not be completely round when we raised the frames.

So, our process was to cut each and every joint in every timber and stack them properly so that the timbers wouldn't distort while other timbers were being processes.

Then at the last or next to last workshop we'd do frame fit ups where we'd put together each tenon to each mortise, one to one. Then when each tenon and mortise of a bent had been checked one to one, we'd do a bent fit up. That is assemble the entire bent on top of saw horses:



(above is a wall fit up photo, but a bent fit up is the same process.)

At the time of fit ups we'd bore the mortise holes before we do the one on one fitting. Then when we did the whole assembly fit up, and everything was ok, we'd run the bit into the mortise hole and poke a point into the tenon to insure we had the right location for the draw bore offset.
We'd pull the joint apart and bore the tenon hole with the proper draw bore offset.

Then on raising day we'd assemble the whole frame in 3 to 4 hours as every joint was tested and ok.

Since that time, I've been advised that this process of running the bit into the hole and poking a point into the tenon is not the standard shop practice. But that with proper hole layout, done with pencil you can pre drill your tenons. 

Working with students of all ages, I found that this process worked for me. That is use the point (not the pencil) to offset for draw boring.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

frwinks

that's excatly how I'm doing it minus the students.  Started back in Jan. 09 and will go through one more winter before we actually raise the frame.  So far, have about 15 sticks cut, about 50 to go :D  Leaving all of the peg hole drilling until final fit-up next year. Most of our frame is WP with some fir and hardwood mixed in.
Time and $$ driven schedules are not for the faint 'o heart ;D and we're constantly asked... "are you guys done yet?"   but if that's what it takes and it's the only way to live out your dream, that's all that matters in the end, right 8)   (at least that's what we're telling ourselves :D)
first fit up with braces, before taking it out to the barn for oiling and storage


mmhailey

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 01, 2009, 11:55:28 AM
So, our process was to cut each and every joint in every timber and stack them properly so that the timbers wouldn't distort while other timbers were being processes.


Jim,

I am also in the process of a DIY frame. Could you give me the quick lesson in how you stacked to avoid distortion? I have about 2000 bd.ft, mostly 8X8s, showing up this week, and plan on ricking/stacking with 2X2s and covering with some used metal roofing.  Then cutting the joints one stick at a time, and restacking.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Jim_Rogers

QuoteCould you give me the quick lesson in how you stacked to avoid distortion?

Well the best thing to do is to create a lumber/timber support base area.

Something like this:



When I create these, I usually level it from front to back and left to right, depending on how the fork lift lines up on the ground next to the base. Then after the timbers/lumber is added I tilt the roof covering material so that the rain water sheds off the stack.

The base has 4x4's every two feet on center to support the lumber/timbers. And you can use any thickness stickers you have depending on the clearance needed for forks from your forklift (if you have one). 2x2's are good for sticking as they will allow good air flow.

Make sure whatever size sticker you use is placed in between each row directly over the support base 4x4. That way the combined weight of all the lumber/timbers is directly supported. This will press the rows and keep everything flat (hopefully).

The only thing you can't rely on is preventing the sideways movement. Hopefully the weight of the stack will press them down enough to prevent them from distorting.

After you have reached the top limit of the stack of lumber/timbers add another row or two of other stock to press the top row down. And then add your covering water shedding stack roof, again as mentioned with a slight angle to it to make the water shed off one end or side.

Adding the extra stock on top helps to hold the top row flat and sometimes people forget about this, and then they loose the top row.

Here is a shot of what not to do:



As you can see the lumber stack here has mixed thicknesses of lumber.
And the blocks are not aligned with the stickers, or the stickers are not aligned with the blocks.
This results in bending of the lumber.

Hope that helps...
Good luck with your project.
And keep asking questions.


Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Hilltop366

I know this won't help if you don't have a sawmill but if you do, would it work to saw the beems a inch or 2 over sized and stack, then resaw and straighten to proper size when ready to cut?

Jim_Rogers

I never have.

The reason why is that the square rule method of timber framing takes into account the irregular shape of timber and all joints are cut to the perfect "inner" timber.

However, I have seen others do this, and it does work for them, especially if the timber didn't start out with truly 90° faces.

You really need two adjacent faces with a 90° angle between the two to start out with.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Hilltop366

Yep, I was really thinking of the twisting and curving more than trying to get perfect 6 x 8 or what ever size. I guess I should of said "close to desired size"

Raphael

I've found my Logosol to be an invaluable timber framing tool, the rigid bar and chain can literally shave a timber square or flat.  It turned a stack of twisted spruce 5x7s into tapered rafters with one flat side (towards the sheathing) and one 90° corner (at least at the plate).
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Meadows Miller

Gday

It will work Mate  ;) ;D 8) remember you can always tune a tenon to fit with a good slick when your doing the final fit if its a little out of shape and likes been said stack the timbers Neatly out of direct sunlight and leave the draw pin holes in the tenons until then too mate  ;)

Another trick is to Fully Oil the Timbers mortise tenons and all ;) as you cut the frame as this slows down the drying process too Mate  ;) I use a Boiled Linseed oil with a tropical mold inhibitor Cheap and it brings out the natural color in the timber  ;) ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Definitely OK to take your time.  My frame took about 18 months.  As I remember, the 1% of timbers that I did cull at raising time were were genuinely bad timbers that wouldn't have performed well in a frame no matter how quickly it had been cut and raised.  For instance, after 18 months, two were bowed like crazy, one was bug ridden, etc.  I was happy to have a chance to re-cut them.  I too drilled most of my pegs holes at raising time.

I would however advise a DIY'er to hire help at raising time, and have a plan for drying the frame in as soon as it is raised.  It's no fun to watch all those months of hard work get beat up in the weather.  BTDT


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