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how do I move logs without equipment?

Started by outofmire, August 19, 2009, 01:46:00 PM

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outofmire

I'm trying to decide on a portable sawmill.  The site will I will be milling is a hillside strewn with small fieldstones, which aren't easy to drive over.  There's oak and pine mostly.   I don't have an ATV, just a 3/4 ton truck, and the truck doesn't like driving around on this stuff.  So I'm wondering if the portable band sawmills are even an option.  Also, even if I can get the sawmill in there, how do I collect the logs near the sawmill so that they are handy?   Would I be better off with a csm?   

Bibbyman

Maybe try for some collection spot where you can set up a mill.  Then when you have enough trees fell and logs cut rent a tractor (or hire someone) to drag the logs to the mill area.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ladylake

A skid loader works good unless it's really hilly.   Sure would take a lot of work out of sawing .   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

metalspinner

A four wheeler could do it for regular sized logs.  Add a log arch for easier mobility.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

beenthere

Welcome to the forum.

Figuring out the log moving problem will take some ingenuity, and will depend on your availability of time (cheap labor?), dollars that you can invest, and a few other variables. 

But about anything can be done. You can even do it by hand with a good LogRite cant hook or peavey.

A winch on the truck may be an option. Another option is a capstan winch with a small engine. It is portable and can be carried around to move logs a fair distance, just not real fast. However, it gives you a lot more range if that might be desirable in the future.

If you think this might be of interest, go to Bailey's sponsor site (left column) and search/find winches and pullers under the Power Equipment heading. Browse that listing for a variety of pulling systems. Some will be slow, but will get the job done. Balance that with your needs and spendable money and possible mill wants, for a solution.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Bibbyman

You wouldn't happen to have a friend with draft horses or mules?  They may be looking for something to give their animals a good workout.



Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Toolman

It usually takes a team like that to pull me away from my mill on a good day... ;D
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

shinnlinger

HI,

How many trees we talking here?

I read a great book that I can't recall the name of right now, but it had numerous answers for our situation from making a slide out of culvert to jacking up the back of your truck and using the wheel as a winch and making a whole mini skyline.

I wonder if an Alaskan chainsaw mill if you only have a few trees to a Peterson Swing mill if you want to get real serious about it would be and option?  THat way you could mill the tree where you dropped it pretty much.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Puffergas

I like the mini-skyline idea. If they are small logs you might want to check out zig-zag yarding:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/spf/cf/zig_zag_monacle_yarder.pdf
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

farmboy1tn

you are in the right place, there are great people here that have many great ideas ???

backwoods sawyer

Take your chainsaw and a hoe-dad and shorten the stumps up so that you have a few trails that you can drive your truck on and get your self a good length or two of 3/8" haywire and a block or two or three to yard the logs out to the trail. A short section of chain will allow you to move the block from stump to stump so that you can thread the log in between them. Then you are just driving the truck back and forth over the same path. I use this method to get logs out of peoples back yards. Sometimes a second truck is needed to anchor a block to. A 4x4 pick-up will move a big log if needed. You will find that parts break on a half-ton, but a ¾-ton truck will yard most any log you could put on a small mill if you work at it.

How much work did you say you wanted to do?

Do not forget the pee-vees you will need a couple, and a couple 6' pry bars will come in handy as well. If you have a partner they make a two man grapple and you can get some one to help you be the mule team. This only works for the smaller logs, and down hill is a big plus. Hit up all the antique places around and you will find an assortment of old logging tools that have been hanging on the wall for years because they are a lot of work to use, but they will make moving logs easier.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

bandmiller2

Out o mire,if this is a one shot deal much cheaper to hire.If you feel your in it for the long haul your going to end up with a tractor and loader better sooner than later.Probibly a swing mill setup on level ground would be the most economical.The swing mill would also let you mill stuff too big to move although its always better to have a good level mill site.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

outofmire

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on August 19, 2009, 11:15:59 PM
Take your chainsaw and a hoe-dad and shorten the stumps up so that you have a few trails that you can drive your truck on and get your self a good length or two of 3/8" haywire and a block or two or three to yard the logs out to the trail. A short section of chain will allow you to move the block from stump to stump so that you can thread the log in between them. Then you are just driving the truck back and forth over the same path. I use this method to get logs out of peoples back yards. Sometimes a second truck is needed to anchor a block to. A 4x4 pick-up will move a big log if needed. You will find that parts break on a half-ton, but a ¾-ton truck will yard most any log you could put on a small mill if you work at it.

Good news....I think I understand all this.  The hay wire is for the logs, right?  And by "block", you're referring to block and tackle.  Use the chain to secure it to a stump, use the hay wire to go around the log, and pull the log to the stump.  Then remove the block from that stump, put it on a different one, and pull again.  Right?  Or just use 2-3 sets of block and tackle to yard it to the trail.  The truck only drives the trail.  Is this all right?  Whoo....that was hard work just thinking about it.

Bad news....I think my truck is 1/2 ton.  How does that change things?  Just stick to the small stuff?  :)


outofmire

Great ideas here.  So basically it's alot of hard work, but possible.  I'd rather not do the csm.  I'm not familiar with Peterson's sawmills.  I was looking at the All Terrain mill.  Do you think it's more portable than some of the others.  I had been thinking hard about the Norwood LM 2000. 


Ianab

Quote from: outofmire on August 20, 2009, 12:06:01 PM
Great ideas here.  So basically it's alot of hard work, but possible.  I'd rather not do the csm.  I'm not familiar with Peterson's sawmills.  I was looking at the All Terrain mill.  Do you think it's more portable than some of the others.  I had been thinking hard about the Norwood LM 2000. 


The Peterson and Lucas mills are generally more portable because they break down into small parts. The mill carriage is the only part you cant carry by hand, and that has clip on wheels so you can move it like a hand cart. This means you can drag it into some pretty out of the way spots over marginal trails. I've dragged mine through swamps and over hills on an ATV trailer.

In your situation I would be looking for a decent winch, maybe a skidding cone, some spare cable, strops, chains etc. Depending on the situation you drag the logs to a reasonably flat spot and set up the mill. Larger logs you set up the mill over the log, smaller logs you can line up and roll them into place under the mill.

I usually look at the log and how much work it is going to be to move. If it's more work to move the log, I move the mill. About 15mins to move mine to a new spot.

The trailer style bandmills are quick enough to move around to a new stack of logs, if you are on dry flat ground or a good track. Not so good in hilly or muddy areas. 1/2 the places I've sawed at, you wold not have got a bandlmill to, and if you did, changes are it would still be there!!

The Swingmills really come into their own with big logs in hard to reach places, but you can still cut small logs in a nice flat field just as well.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

backwoods sawyer

Quote from: outofmire on August 20, 2009, 11:57:36 AM

Good news....I think I understand all this.  The hay wire is for the logs, right?  And by "block", you're referring to block and tackle.  Use the chain to secure it to a stump, use the hay wire to go around the log, and pull the log to the stump.  Then remove the block from that stump, put it on a different one, and pull again.  Right?  Or just use 2-3 sets of block and tackle to yard it to the trail.  The truck only drives the trail.  Is this all right?  Whoo....that was hard work just thinking about it.

Bad news....I think my truck is 1/2 ton.  How does that change things?  Just stick to the small stuff?  :)

I had been thinking hard about the Norwood LM 2000.

Yep that about sums it up.

I have used a half ton to move some good-sized logs, just be gentle and tug on them rather then yanking on them.

The Norwood 2000 seems to be a well built mill.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Puffergas

Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

Ianab

Quote from: Puffergas on August 20, 2009, 07:26:04 PM

One way to get the lumber out:

http://www.demoforests.net/Warehouse/Docs/ForestryNotes/Note117.pdf

Very interesting...

They actually used a mini cable yarder to to 'airlift' the swingmill to the logs and move it  around the site. Then hauled out sawn boards or cants and retrieved the mill again. Because the cable only has to carry the mill components and as many sawn boards as the workers can load on it there is no heavy load to support.

Leave only foot prints, and a stump, and some sawdust  :D )

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

shinnlinger

There was an article in the last Sawmills and Woodlot about using sulkies to bring logs out buy hand.  MOst of us call sulkies "arches" but technically arches have tracks.  They were also using lewis winches and there is a newer honda powered unit that uses rope which I guess is lighter.  There is a post on here about log loading trailers some time ago where someone had a loading arm that could be taken off the trailer and have wheels attached that made it possible to winch logs to the trailer without tearing everything up.  I bring this up because I could see you making a sulkie using the rear tires of an old garden tractor or ATV to lift the end of a log and then attaching it to a Looooong rope that makes it to your truck and then you drive a bit and pull the log down.

I was looking at a Norwood when I found my Turner, at a good local used price.  I think they both have the same Honda motors and similar capacity.  The Norwood ships on a pallet, but once you put it together I don't think it is any more portable than any other bandsaw mill.  It is the swing mills or possibly a Mobile Dimension Mill that are considered more portable over rough terrain.

Lets say you end up with a band mill and you only have a truck.  Then what?  Muscling logs on a manual mill is no fun and dealing with the boards and slabs is no fun either without a FEL or forklift or something.  Do you have enough friends and family who are gluttons for punishment to help you out?

As I ramble through this thread I will go back to the log trailer I mentioned earlier.  I could see you using a winch to load the trailer and then bringing the trailer alongside  a band mill be it out in the woods or next to your house.  YOu could then use a peavy or cant dog to roll the log off the trailer directly onto the mill deck and mill without equipment.  Now you will still be humping alot of boards and slabs so place the mill where you want your board piles, but it is possible if you have alot of energy.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

DanG

Quote from: shinnlinger on August 21, 2009, 11:32:27 PM
Lets say you end up with a band mill and you only have a truck.  Then what?  Muscling logs on a manual mill is no fun and dealing with the boards and slabs is no fun either without a FEL or forklift or something. 

Winches and loaders and forklifts are great, but if you're patient you can get along without them at first.  It may even be better to not have too much help while you're learning to handle logs.  You can use the truck to parbuckle logs onto the trailer or the mill.  You can also offbear straight onto the truck or trailer and save excess handling of lumber.  Lots of ways to get by, if you have to and want to. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

backwoods sawyer

When you do not have equipment to handle the logs and lumber you find the most efficient ways of moving them in short order. The fewer steps you have to take the better, and after you have to move a stack lumber, tailing, or logs twice you will find those ways real quick.
Then again, some animals touch the electric fence more then once before they figure out that it is hot.
Winches, hydraulics, horsepower (both animal and mechanical) and ingenuity will all make handling logs and lumber easier. Sometimes it is easier to learn how to handle all of this before you have a helper. Think everything thru and know that those logs can get you when they roll, and they do not think twice about hurting you.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

beenthere

Quote from: shinnlinger on August 21, 2009, 11:32:27 PM
..........  MOst of us call sulkies "arches" but technically arches have tracks.  ...................

When did that happen? I must have missed the technical description along the way.  :)

And I thought a sulky had a seat.  ::) ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

shinnlinger

Hi,

I totally agree that ingenuity and hard work can compensate for a lack of equipment.  Just look at all the old pit sawn and hand hewn timbers and timberframes around. 

BUT I also think it is only fair to be up front with how much work we are talking with the lower cost manual bandmills.  Even with my FEL with forks and excavator, the first few weeks of my manual mill experience were enough to make me consider giving up on the whole idea of sawing my own timberframe.  I did work it out in the end though and I am glad I stuck with it. 

However, I should also point out here it was only worth it because I had many FREE, easy to get, large, round, straight, top quality trees to pick through after a big windstorm AND I was interested in 24+ feet 10x timbers. 

If I only had a few scraggly trees and only wanted 2x4's I would have been much better off just buying those. 

I think It is also very important for a land owner to consider the amount and cost of quality trees you have access to in making a manual mill purchase and there shouldn't be delusions of making your living with a manual mill.  I am sure there are those who have done it, but I wouldn't recommend it based on my experiences. 

IN the end it is the trees you have access to that make or break the investment/experience.

A person may very well be up to the hard work required, but I just don't want anyone thinking it will be easy.

As far as the arch/sulkie thing goes, I am just going by what I have read in Sawmills and Woodlot so I shouldn't have stated it the way I did and I should have cited my source earlier.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

gizmodust

Just my $0.02. No matter how much power and equipment you have, you better have a lot of sweat to go with it or it ain't gonna work.  I have a manual mill and don't mind the sweat equity that goes with it.  Wouldn't mind having more equipment (hydraulic loaders and all) but that doesn't stop someone with sawdust in the veins ;) :) ;).
Always liked wood with alot of character

backwoods sawyer

Even with all the hydraulics and computer sets works, one thing you have to keep in mind when you load that 2 1/2 ton log onto the mill. Every bit of it (Except for the sawdust) will have to be packed off to be stacked. After a day of handling big wood you will feel it.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

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