Tweeked LT30 frame

Auminer · August 14, 2009, 08:32:49 PM

Wondering why the cant isn't square...now I know.
Measured on rear cross frame from the main rail side:
(not measured on the fold down beds)

This 2' over from the main rail:

BTW the front main cross frame (nearest the tongue) is spot on!

Guess I'll be cutting "rough lumber" eh?

Tom · August 14, 2009, 09:07:16 PM

That actually doesn't look too bad. It's not so far off that it can't be fixed by adjusting a guide. Find the high side and push it down a smidgeon.

Most un-square cants, I call them Diamond cants, can be traced to the leveling dogs not being square to the bed or from clamping too hard. Put a level board on the bed and then use a builders framing square to see if the Dogs are square.

Also, when you are making a cut, notice to see if the "input" side of the cant is higher than the "output" side. You will see daylight under the thing if the clamp or dogs are at fault.

The good thing about Woodmizer bunks is that they are adjustable. If it turns out that the bunks aren't square, you have the capability of adjusting them with bolts. It's a seldom needed adjustment, and I wouldn't want to have to do it, but it can be done.

Auminer · August 14, 2009, 09:51:42 PM

QuoteIt's not so far off that it can't be fixed by adjusting a guide. Find the high side and push it down a smidgeon.

Well, as I said the front one is "spot on" so adjusting a guide would throw it off on the other end, eh?

QuoteThe good thing about Woodmizer bunks is that they are adjustable.

Ya, but I'm talking about the welded frame..."(not measured on the fold down beds)" :P
...er did I mis-read something?

Fla._Deadheader · August 14, 2009, 10:09:55 PM

Maybe it's me, but, are you showing the straight edge comparison, or the Metric-inch comparison ??? Those rulers are NOT reading the same amount of space. ???

tyb525 · August 14, 2009, 10:27:14 PM

FD, they are two different rulers. They have slightly different markings but both measure inches.

WH_Conley · August 14, 2009, 11:08:55 PM

Two different rules or tapes will give different readings, maybe just by a few thousandths, but different.

FDH is right, got to look at the right side of one pic and the left side of the other one.

Tom · August 14, 2009, 11:12:48 PM

QuoteYa, but I'm talking about the welded frame..."(not measured on the fold down beds)"
...er did I mis-read something?

Maybe we are talking of two different things. I'm not sure what you are referencing when you say fold-down beds. If you mean the one at the head and tail of the mill that swing in and out, those are almost impossible to keep lined up anyway.

I was talking of the stationary horizontal bunks that form the bed. The are made with a piece of square tubing set on top of another piece of square tubing and held up with two adjustment bolts, one on the beam side of the bunk and one on the loader side of the bunk. The bunks are made such that they can be adjusted. It's a tedious job that you don't want to do in a hurry, but it can be done.

You really need a book. Essentially what you do is level the first bunk to the band. Then you move to the next bunk and make it match the first by measuring to the band.

These bunks don't get out of adjustment too easily, so I would look for something else being wrong first.

If the Stationary bunks are straight, then make the swinging arm bunks match them.

We need to get on the same page, I fear.

Chuck White · August 14, 2009, 11:25:30 PM

I can't picture exactly where you're measuring from, but one thing you need to keep in mind if the adjustments are the same as an LT40!
There is supposed to be 1/16th of an inch difference between the inner and outer blade guide roller and the bunk. That is, from the blade to the bunk at the outer blade guide roller should be 1/16th inch higher than measuring from the blade to the bunk at the inner blade guide roller!

Auminer · August 15, 2009, 12:50:56 AM

Darn, didn't mean this to be a bucket of worms. Hope I can make sense out of this...

Quote...they are two different rulers. They have slightly different markings but both measure inches.

First off it is the same (24") square only flipped so you could see it more plainly. (one side shows 1/16" markings at this point and the other shows 1/8" markings)

I guess I should call it the "Bunk" rather than "Front (or back) Cross Frame".

I have an operators manual, a blade handbook and the LT30 parts book from WM...I fail to see where a welded frame can be adjusted via bolts.

QuoteI was talking of the stationary horizontal bunks that form the bed.

Me too...so far ok, but my cross frame is made out of 6"x2" steel heavy tubing and is not square.(the 2" square ones fold down and are adjustable) The main rail is a 9"x2" piece of steel heavy tubing that is welded solid to the 6"x2" cross frame pieces...one in front and the other in the back.

Don't mean to sound argumentative...but I don't have what you are describing Tom. Hope this photo will clear things up.
I also want to believe that I can adjust the bunk at this point, but...?????

Maybe this will help:

Auminer · August 15, 2009, 01:15:03 AM

Tom, here lies our discrepancy's...note the "NOTE"

I have an earlier model that is not adjustable! bummer...

backwoods sawyer · August 15, 2009, 01:17:34 AM

Time to up grade.....

Bibbyman · August 15, 2009, 05:16:27 AM

Great photos.

I thought when you said something about fold down beds you had one of the earliest models where there were two beds in the center that folded away – thus the log was only supported by the two outer beds. I friend had one of these mills. But I didn't remember that the other rails were not "doubled" and suspended on adjustable bolts like the later models.

The guide rollers are not adjustable either?

How about the cam roller bearings the head rides on? They are surely adjustable or maybe they're worn and need replaced?

bandmiller2 · August 15, 2009, 06:21:42 AM

Dave,is the mill level all ways?Mayby the slight amount of twist could be adjusted out with the support legs.Its possible the fella before you sprung the frame if so it would require carefull inspection and possible tweeking . Possibly the guide rail is worn at the point of heaviest use.Frank C.

Fla._Deadheader · August 15, 2009, 08:55:47 AM

OK. Pardon me for seeming to be so dumb :

:

If you block the frame solid to the axle, so you can put a long pry bar in the frame, can it be twisted or "Tweeked" as you put it ??? If so, stabilizering legs will help a little.

If not, I would adjust the outer blade guide, by splitting the difference between the two, and just saw that way.

It is, after all, as you say, "Rough Lumber".

Tweeking the frame back that little bit, would be a challenge, but, could be done. We have straightened things that required some brain work before attempting, so, Block it solid on one end, and twist it a mite on the other, with something you can make fine adjustments with.

Dana · August 15, 2009, 09:21:14 AM

Quote from: Auminer on August 15, 2009, 01:15:03 AM
Tom, here lies our discrepancy's...note the "NOTE"

I have an earlier model that is not adjustable! bummer...

In the note area of your quote above it says to reference another section of the manual to adjust the blade to the bed. The adjustment is in the rollers that ride the rails.

Tom · August 15, 2009, 02:54:02 PM

QuoteThe adjustment is in the rollers that ride the rails.

That works if all of the bunks are level to each other, but I see his dilemma. He needs an adjustment that is particular to each bunk. I guess a worn rail could be the problem, but so could a twisted frame. I've seen mills be farther out than that though. I've even had sap buildup on my bunks that was 1/8th thick and had to stop and clean it off. You are always fighting pieces of bark and other trash under a cant as well. Sometimes you just have to resign yourself to doing the best you can do.

Auminer · August 15, 2009, 02:55:56 PM

QuoteI thought when you said something about fold down beds you had one of the earliest models where there were two beds in the center that folded away – thus the log was only supported by the two outer beds. I friend had one of these mills. But I didn't remember that the other rails were not "doubled" and suspended on adjustable bolts like the later models.

Yup that's the one I have Bibby, with the fold down beds in the middle. Can use them or not...and they are adjustable, but not the main frame or "bunk".

QuoteThe adjustment is in the rollers that ride the rails.

Ya I know, but as I have mentioned "BTW the front main cross frame (nearest the tongue) is spot on!"...so adjusting one will throw the other one out.
Yup, I leveled it Frank.

QuoteTweeking the frame back that little bit, would be a challenge, but, could be done. We have straightened things that required some brain work before attempting, so, Block it solid on one end, and twist it a mite on the other, with something you can make fine adjustments with.

It would take a good frame shop to make such a minor adjustment with this heavy frame. (I used to own a body shop in one of my past lives) There is only one body shop in town and he's just getting started with no capabilities for this.

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, being new at this, thought maybe I was missing something...back to sawin' "rough lumber".
Guess that's why they make planers, eh... ;D

QuoteTime to up grade.....

...almost forgot...wi$h I could...

MartyParsons · August 15, 2009, 03:35:32 PM

Can I ramble in here? From the pictures this is a early revision LT30. There should be one bed ( front toward the hitch ) rail that is adjustable? If not follow the procedure in the book. If the pictures you have on here is the manual you have it is not correct. These mills revisions have fold down center bed rails that are adjustable. Some owners of this revision put the bed rails up and weld them so they will not fold down. These mills are very sensitive to mill frame adjustment. I have put more weight on one leg to adjust a simular issuue like you are having. These early revisions mills are a real chalange to get spot on, within a 1/16". The 92+ mills had many advantages for adjustments and thankfully we have evolved even more since then.
Hope this helps!
Marty

Hilltop366 · August 15, 2009, 03:45:52 PM

What I did to level the cross pieces on my home made csm was, I counter sunk bolted on a piece of wood on each cross piece and then scribed them "level" with the blade and planed them to match.

I'm not sure this will work with your mill but I thought I would share it with you in case it would.

backwoods sawyer · August 16, 2009, 01:19:49 AM

I am just speculating but if you are having a twisted frame issue, it should be relatively easy to take care of with the proper foundation. Pour a slab with several bolts sticking out along each side of the frame, weld some heavy 3" angle iron on the frame at these points with a hole to go over the bolt and use a pair of nuts above and below to adjust the twist out of the frame. Then wedge under the frame the full length so that it will support the heavy loads. For $150, and a weekend, you would have a solid mill that should stay in alignment until you move it.

Auminer · August 16, 2009, 03:19:27 AM

Quote...These early revisions mills are a real chalange to get spot on, within a 1/16".

I'm just gonna have to work with what I have, which is better than what I had! ;)

QuoteWhat I did to level the cross pieces on my home made csm was, I counter sunk bolted on a piece of wood on each cross piece and then scribed them "level" with the blade and planed them to match.

Thanks Hilltop, this sounds like it would work, 'cept I'll need to go through a 6" piece of tubing for the bolt, hmmmm. Thanks for the photo!

Quote...relatively easy to take care of with the proper foundation. Pour a slab...

Thanks Backwoods, but being where I am concrete and steel is not cheap as we have to ship everything in...'cept trees! I would have to scrounge around for angle iron for example, there are no stores that carry it. Gonna need to move it anyway. Good thought tho... Different living mode up here.

Bibbyman · August 16, 2009, 11:58:12 AM

For what it's worth.. Two observations.

It don't look like the old mill is used very often and it's not off by much.

I'd tend to try a cheap and dirty fix and see how it would work. I'd try building up the low bunk with something like metallic duct tape or something of the sort. Maybe even Bondo autobody putty.

backwoods sawyer · August 16, 2009, 05:01:18 PM

Quote...Thanks Backwoods, but being where I am concrete and steel is not cheap as we have to ship everything in...'cept trees! I would have to scrounge around for angle iron for example, there are no stores that carry it. Gonna need to move it anyway. Good thought tho... Different living mode up here.

Yep some times we forget that the simple things are not always readily available. I spent some time up there in the north country when I was younger. My wife is from up north as well.

Cut yourself some beams and build a sub-frame for the mill, kinda like the old steam donkeys used. Just level the beams up and the weight of the beams should hold the mill frame down flat. Your mill would still be portable as well.