Written Contract.

[Maineloggerkid]

I might be considering going to work as a handcutter for my friend's brother in-law. This is a big might. They had a falling out and my friend quit this morning. They had a dispute about taxes, among other things. I blame this largly on the fact that there was no written agreement, and it is hard to work for/with family.

IF I go to work for this fellow, I was planning on making a written contract, so that if there is any dispute, We can cunsult the contract and get the answer.My question is this:

What should I put in the contract? Obviously things like pay, taxing methods, job duties, and what the boss is responsible for, but is ther anything else I should include?

Thanks.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think a lot depends on if you'll be a subcontractor or an employee.

[Maineloggerkid]

I haven't really discussed it yet, but I think I would be an independent contractor.

[Tillaway]

As an independant contractor you would be picking up the tab for taxes, insurance as well as all costs associated with gettin gthe work done.  Most folks use an hourly or day rate.  That way if you have to full manufacture logs you don't have to worry about changing pay rates.

Most would probably want a bushel rate.  Be sure to have different rates for harvest types, timber size and degree of difficulty to work the trees up.

You will certainly want a contract with payment frequency and other particulars spelled out.   Do not be afraid to ask for a contract modifictions if the job changes.

As an employee around here you supply the saw power head the company picks up bars, chains, all fuel, including your truck, and oil.  The company pays you by the hour.

[Maineloggerkid]

Wow, employees out there have it alot better than here. HEre the only thing the boss supplies is gas and oil for the saw, skidder, and a paycheck. Gas for the truck, chains, saws, everything else is up to the sawyer. pLus, we usually work 10-12 hour days. SOmetimes more if we need to meet a deadline or if we have had a couple slow days.

[Tillaway]

6 hours a day 5 days a week too. California is 7 hour days 6 days a week.  6 hours is about all you can handle here and still work safely.  Contractors sometimes put in more hours.

[Ron Wenrich]

I remember when I worked there in the early '70s, the cutters were only allowed to make $100/day and that would mean a 6 hr workday.  I thought they worked longer when markets were good.

But, the high lead and yarder crews were expected to put in 10 hr days, 5 days a week.  In the summer they went for 6 days.  The company paid for the ride just one way.

Times have changed. 

[Maineloggerkid]

Ya, see, usually I'm on the end of the saw for about 10 hours, no matter wether its 85 degrees, or 4 feet of snow. On a good day in the summer cutters around may cut and limb up to 150-175 trees. ( Granted the are smaller than your trees out there)

My friend and I were talking about pulling a 16 hour shift when we worked together, but that never got to take place. We wanted the over time, mostly.

[sjfarkas]

I always have inclusions, exclusions and terms and conditions.
Inclusions-what I include, very specific
exclusions-what I wont do, once again very specific

Terms and conditions- This is where I get into payment terms, what the other party is required to do, I always state that changes in the project will result in changes in the price.  There is always other little items I throw in depending on who I work for and the type of job.  Develop a format and the rest falls into place.

[SwampDonkey]

In the mid 90's the fallers were getting $350 a day on the north coast of BC. Left camp about the same time as the layout crews and cruisers and came back before everyone else. They worked 5 days, we worked 10 to 20 days straight, no such thing as weekends. 4 to 6 days off when we got back to the civilized world.

[Maineloggerkid]

Here we don't get paid by the day. We get paid by the hour. Usually around $10/hour. Thanks so far for the info from everyone on contract stuff.

[critter]

 I was a contract logger in South Dakota Wyoming Montana for many years the mills
bought the sales and I logged them all my cutters where indipendent you gave them
a strip to cut and they could cut 12 hours a day or 2 days a week they where payed
by the mbf I skided 7 days aweek we piled each cutters wood in a deck with his
initials on if they finished a strip and wanted new one you moved him to the last
stirp being cut and he started again the mill forester came out fri. and scaled the
decks and wrote down the initials on the decks and they cut us a check I payed
cutters on scale estimate till the wood was hauled the mills did the trucking for
themselfs then we settelled up on mill scale they cleaned you up every couple of
weeks the mill scale wasn't of the draw by much a good cutter could make a
1000. 1200. a week good money back then but they were totaly on there own
as far as equip. and time went we had to have comp. and liabilty I had an average
of fifteen at any given time the skidders and yard crew were mine and they were
paid on prodction you bet a@# they showed up 7 days aweeks

[Tillaway]

6 hours works for the 1:00pm shutdowns usually in August and September for fire danger.  Right now they have a one hour fire watch... legally three but a waiver is usally granted for periods during lower fire danger.

Some guys use the x number gallons clock.  Go through 1 1/12 to 2 gallons of gas and go home.

The least I have cut for is $11.00 an hour, company picked up all equipment and costs, back when times were tough.  I think most guys are getting between $20 and $25 now.  Contractors are around $350 a day.

[Maineloggerkid]

YA, we get $10 and have to cover are own stuff around my neck of the woods.

[Ironwood]

No offense, Loggerdude, but YIKES $10? Man that aint much to risk your neck for, in one of the most dangerous occupations. I'd sit that one out finding some other work until they decide to pay a decent wage. I was told somewhere in Colorado they were paying fiarly well for pine infestation cleanup cutting. If your single and mobile, I'd travel for some decent pay if you ABSOLUTELY need to work in the woods.

        IMHO, Ironwood

[SwampDonkey]

If I had to cut with my own saw and gas and get myself there, no less than $25/hr. Cutting brush pays way better than $10 an hour, so cutting down trees should be a bit more. We figure on $20/hr brush cutting on an 8 hr day. 10$/hour if your brushing line, supplied the gas and the saw and wheels. Sounds like they're stick'n it to ya.

[Maineloggerkid]

There is a guy I know thats been with the same company for 28 years, and hes been runnning a harverstor for about 20, and he only makes $13. People around here don't want to pay up. Maine has the highest taxes in the nation and we are almost dead last in wages.

[Ironwood]

There is a 1960's-70's song, cant remember the singer, "going mobile". Time to find some better digs man.

           Ironwood

[Maineloggerkid]

I'm thinkin' maybe. :(

[Tillaway]

Ten an hour is better than $0.  The $20 to $25 is provided you can find a job.  Unemployment here is 12.4% and climbing.  Seems like people keep moving to Oregon and then start looking for jobs. :

Woods jobs are few and far between right now.  You have to have quite a pedigree to get any intrest.

The local mills are hiring for certain highly skilled jobs; electrical, rolling stock mechanics surprisingly.

Lots of under employed cutters, equipment operators and rigging rats available right now.

[Maineloggerkid]

I've given some thought to going to work for the forest service fighting fires and then trying for Forest Ranger after that. I have a freind who's dad is the head Forest Ranger locally, and he likes it, so I'm going to call him tommorow.

I've fought forest fires before, and although they are a bad thing I kinda liked the actual firefighting part. It gives a good adrenaline rush, and I'm am always seeking hte next adrenaline "high".

[Maineloggerkid]

Wow, this thread has really shifted topics, Huh?  :D  Oh well, I guess thats what they do.

[Ironwood]

FYI, One of the best things I EVER did was join the military out of highschool. Widened my horizons and got me out of my hometown, first one in my family to graduate from college, and the list goes on. Best thing I ever did. It is not for everyone, but you will gain a worldly view and never be the same person again. It will ALWAYS look good on a resume'  ;) ALWAYS


              IMHO, Ironwood

[Maineloggerkid]

I was going to sign up with the Marines, but the recruiter told me I would have problems with my Flat feet. The army guy said that I could do some things, but not all.

This is on my mind, I just have to decide. I'm just taking a proactive stance on getting a forestry career right now, and this seems like a good idea. They get paid better than anyone else in the area, get state benefits, and a retirement plan.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to the military route. Along with experience gained in life, one can then take advantage of the GI Bill and go for a forestry degree. That was the route I took also.

[OneWithWood]

Ironwood, that would be The Who.

Both times I wrecked my car in high school that album, 'Who's Next', was in the 8 track. 

Maineloggerkid, I second the opinions that now would be a good time to expand your horizons.  I don't see how you can be making much at $10/hour and supplying all the equipment.

[Maineloggerkid]

I appreciate the input guys. It is all being noted and thought on.

[Maineloggerkid]

Hey guys,

After giving it some thought, It looks like I may be joining the Air Force next summer.
I was talking to my cousins about it, and come to find out , they were planning on it , too. We will probably go in on the buddy program. This way we will have at least someone we know during basic. That might be a helpful moral boost.

I have talked to my family, and while they don;t like the thought of my leaving( and niether do I really, bit of a home-body) They think it is the best thing for me, as do I. I plan on going in with my MOS as heavy equipment mechanic, and then when I get out use my GI bill to get my surveyors liscence. Then I can be an independent surveyor, or work as a tech in a Nortrax or MIlton Cat, or even a truck dealer. Both well paying and needed.

Also, every man in my family has been in the Airforce, so it will be like " passing the torch", if you will.

                                                                                             Maineloggerkid.

[Ron Scott]

Sounds Good! and should be a good experience for you.

[chucker]

" BEST OF LUCK " to you in the new life experiance!! its one you will remember for that ......

[Norm]

Way to go MK!

[Maineloggerkid]

Thanks for the support.

Again, it's not set in stone yet. A year is a long time, but I am going to talk to a recruiter soon.

[SwampDonkey]

Years go bye fast.  ;)

Too bad Loring hadn't closed shop, a lot of fellows that were stationed there retired in the area. I don't know of any personally, often they have a talk show or news item with folks that did, being interviewed. Lots of winter cold wind and snow as most anyplace up here in this region of the globe.

[gary]

I spent 4 1/2 years in the Air Force. I learned a lot.  Got to see some places I would have never seen. Even managed to talk a girl from Maine into marrying me 30 years ago. I have never regretted my time in the Air Force.
  Good luck

[Jasperfield]

Just start praying to the Lord, and ask Him to open your eyes and ears. Listen for Him. You'll hear His voice when you're quiet. He'll guide you, He'll send you.

Remember, He works in His ways, and in His time, not yours.

Pray to Him...and know that He'll hear you.

He already knows what you're goin' through. He knows where you're at. He made you and he'll show you the way.

[Maineloggerkid]

^^^^^^^Exactly. I know that I'll end up where I am supposed to be, so I'm no that worried.