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estimating standing wood volume

Started by sjfarkas, July 01, 2009, 12:06:17 AM

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sjfarkas

I'm wondering how firewood quantities are estimated when the trees are still standing.  We don't have much of an oak market here, but firewood is a good seller.  I'm looking at purchasing 15 acres and for some reason it is solid oak and the property is surrounded by cedar and pine forest.  thanks for any info
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

chucker

average a tree, trees to a cord, cords to an acre, multiply by acres, total......  nothing hard about it ! estimates are just that a good guess, unless there all on the landing in a deck pile with more measurements....................  and then you have all the tops to deal with ? ....
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Ron Wenrich

There's several ways of taking sample to figure out volumes.  You can take circular plots every 200 feet, you can cruise in strips that are of a set width, you can do a 100% survey, you can even use a dime as an angle gauge.

For the 100% cruise, you would have to mark down each tree by diameter and height.  You would have to mark the tree so you don't double count it.  This is pretty accurate, but its time consuming, and depending on grade or understory it can be pretty rough.

For a sample, most foresters take at least a 10% sample.  I've always found that my samples are pretty accurate to the entire stand.  If you use a circular plot, you would count everything within a 37.3' radius.  Just use a staff and a rope to find the area and count all the trees in the circle.  It will represent 10% of the volume.  Again, you would record height and diameter. 

Here's some reading for inventories and for point sampling.  They can be found in the "forum extras" box at the top right of the page.  There you go to the Knowledge Base and look under forestry.  Here are the links:

Timber inventory
Point sampling - the equipment
Point sampling - the cruise
Point sampling - crunching the numbers

After you have your data, you're going to need to convert the diameter and height over to either cords or tons.  Your diameter is to be measured at 4.5' above the ground (high side of the tree if its on a slope).  For firewood, you can measure in either 4', 5' or 8' bolts.  I use 8' because that's equal to a 1/2 log when cruising sawtimber.

To get your cordwood figures, you can use our handy calculator that we have at a sister site.  http://www.timberbuyer.net/pulp.htm
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chucker

??? yea right ??? !!  :-\ :D  an under estimate is about always to the buyers advantage if the seller is happy .....
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Ron Wenrich

An over estimate is to the seller's advantage, so what's your point? 

I've used these methods for both buying and selling timber.  I know how accurate my count is and I can stand firmly behind my methods and figures. 

Your method is to "average a tree".  Tell us more on how you do that.  How do you figure your cords/acre?  There has to be a tree count in order to do that.  How are you counting your trees?  Time to let the rest of the world in on your methodology. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chucker

first of all ,what ever works for you .. most of my estimates are lower then the out come, after paying for stumpage its nice to have a stronger count then short.... as far as averaging trees  here there mostly pine and aspen. straight as an arrow with as many as 8 sticks per. 12" butts with 3" tops not to hard to figure... usually running at 12 cord to the acre. hardwood is a little more interesting but will run about 15 cord per acre (clear cuts )... so figure low, pay low on a count makes for a better profit margin or error!!  works for me.
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Jeff

That hardly sounds fair or accurate.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

sjfarkas

I thought about buying a piece of property and the only way would be if the would could pay for the down.  If I estimate low and it pencils out then I'm not hurting anybody and maybe I'll buy the property.  Then if I get more wood I can take my family to sizler  8) :D
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: chucker on July 02, 2009, 09:02:22 AM
usually running at 12 cord to the acre. hardwood is a little more interesting but will run about 15 cord per acre (clear cuts )... so figure low, pay low on a count makes for a better profit margin or error!!  works for me.

Sound about right if your paying for 1/3 of the wood harvested.  ;) Of course I don't know your woods like I know my own. But similar stands here run 26-44 cord per acre. I guess ya just throw a dart on a board marked in 10 cord progressions per ring to determine the volume.  ;D

Tell me how you would determine the average size tree without sampling to find the diameter distribution? After sampling many stands of local hardwood over the years on private land with trees up to 40 inch diameter, the average usually falls within 8-9 inches at breast height. Trees measured are 4" and up. Quite a difference between the average and upper diameters. Those 40 inchers aren't usually too far away from being owl wood with a hard lean. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chucker

 not sure with your style of est. but "YES" at brest height and 4.5" and larger is classed as tree and not brush.. density for cordage  as everwhere changes due to climate and soil conditions! experiance has been a great help for est. cordage from past clearing jobs. as a lot of guestimating, theres always errors on both sides of the scale.. for my estimating its done on 5 acres and less!!so anywheres from 10 cords to 60 is a great payday when the market is up, firewwod is a plus after saw timber..
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Clark

chucker - You illicit more questions than answers given.  And not exactly good questions either.  My experience in northern MN was that 20 cords/acre was average, you seem to be estimating low (and spectacularly low on certain ground) to the benefit of your own pocket book.  Like SD's 40" DBH trees, this is leaning the wrong way.

sjfarkas -   You're going to come across lots of different methods or exact protocols for measuring timber.    I'd recommend sticking with Ron's methods above and going with it.  Trying to figure out the "best" method for your area won't give you any advantages at this point.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ron Scott

~Ron

chucker

 lol ??? northern mn. the forests are thicker then in centeral . counts for northern are higher as in 30 plus cords for the spruce forests!! centeral mn is strong at 15 cds.per acre!! so illicit, i think not !! always fair in my work with many call backs from old/new clients which are more then happy with my methods of madness . profits on both ends are sound and secure for both parties!! so not to judge ones work or ethics with steady work in lean times....
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Jeff

Chucker your method may work for you right where you are at, and it may be fair in your eyes and the eyes of whatever clients you may have found. That's gotta be good for you. However, I'll bet from the view relative to the several thousand years in collective experience this forum's membership has, the consensus will be that your style is to say for the lack of a better way, in the minority of how things would be done by the majority.  :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

chucker

 :D  and the majority is not always right in their style as lack of a better way of learning in the field of work experiance .... to do is to learn at first hand, instead of by the book !! so i can only guess or estimate that on this forum if you do not agree with the majority way you are wrong in all facts and figures??? have i estimated wrong again ? " NOT "
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Ron Wenrich

Sorry, but you have estimated wrong.  If you think that we only have book learning experience, then you have vastly underestimated the quality of work experience here on the boards.  Books are guide lines.  Our experience tells us that no 2 areas are alike, and that we can't put an estimate on it just by some average.

I've bought timber for large mills and small mills.  In each case I had to give not only a volume estimate, but a quality estimate.  I then had to develop a bid price to beat out the competitors, and make a profit.  Think they taught that in a book?  Think you can use averages? 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chucker

respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

beenthere

chucker
If you have read much on this forum, or become somewhat familiar with the advice normally handed out, you will have realized that there are many different opinions of individuals.  But many seem to come to this forum to learn a way to do something (recent discussions on the Timber Framing Board is a good example) and are graciously helped by the diligence of some members, by threads previously posted, and by listening to those who know the right way.

We all will eventually do what works best for us. However, knowing the best way to do a job from those with experience certainly shouldn't belittle you and how you do your job.      Your way may work for you. But it isn't something that can or should be learned by others who want to estimate the cordwood volume or standing wood volume on a forest. Just isn't the Forestry Forum way.

And someone could lose their shirt or be taken to court if their volume estimates are slip-shod and not close. Or could just be shamed out of their business.

At least, it seems that way to me.  :) :)  I learn something on the FF every day.  As well, I learned about how chucker estimates standing wood volume.  ;D

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

chucker

 ;D THANKSFOR THE VOTE OF CONFIDANCE...  as it works for me and no complaints from the other either.. forestry forum does its purpose!! educational and informative!!   8)
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

mrnero


chucker

Quote from: mrnero on November 27, 2009, 05:45:40 PM
This site may answer your question; http://extension.unh.edu/Forestry/Docs/firewood.pdf
THANKS!! mrnero, looks easy to do and use for a fast guesstimate! should be close if you dont cut anything smaller then the 4.5dbh on a clear cut... most sites are generaly smaller trees these days anyways.
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

mrnero

Quote from: chucker on November 27, 2009, 06:35:06 PM
Quote from: mrnero on November 27, 2009, 05:45:40 PM
This site may answer your question; http://extension.unh.edu/Forestry/Docs/firewood.pdf
THANKS!! mrnero, looks easy to do and use for a fast guesstimate! should be close if you dont cut anything smaller then the 4.5dbh on a clear cut... most sites are generaly smaller trees these days anyways.
Hmmmm !  generally, trees smaller than 5" in diamenter is called brush in this region. I dont think there is any firewood market for brush, limb wood or rollers in this area.
Myself, I like processing the big veneer logs into firewood. Faster production that way.

SwampDonkey

Some folks take tops down to 2-1/2", kitchen stove wood. But dad also did it for furnace wood, I've handled a gazillion stick sized stove wood pieces. ::) Marketability here is 4" at DBH, a stick of 4 foot pulp. 4 foot market is pretty much dried up now though, but 4" dbh is still considered merchantable. A 20" dbh hard maple or yellow birch will take a century at least to grow in these parts. Takes 50 years to get to 8".
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chucker

yes !! i do like selective cutting....  2.5" on up makes great firewood and saves on the seed tree!!  seed tree? "the tree of life" for the future of the forest and that speices.......
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Meadows Miller

Gday

This is how i do it in the private blocks of pine ive done Fellas  ;) You tell them your ton rate mines from$5 to $12 a ton and you take a punt at how many ton (or semiloads ) you'll get stoping at 8"sed  then take about 60 ton off if they ask you roughly  how much thell make  ;)  :D then you measure it over the weigh bridge too easy  ;)  :D ;D 8) 8) 8) I dont do pulp as its too much of a pita or too far to go for not enough dough  ;) :D

I dont know haw you blokes can go down to a 2.5 inch top  ;)  :o but your in a different type of area alltogether  ;) :D ;D the stuff i mainly deal with is 25 to 40yo radiata pine plantation scheme plantations 12" to 20" avv dia that had little to no thought in the planning stage some of my blocks have been given to me just to clean em up and put the land back into agicultural production theres 1000s of acres of this type of stuff within a 60 mile radius i allready have 300 acres lined up enough to keep me busy  ;) :D ;D 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

ljmathias

Be careful there, Chris- you work too hard at your logging there and you'll put yourself right out of business!  Must be a mess of new construction going on down under if there's that much demand...

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

SwampDonkey

Might have something to do with the long drought and needing to reclaim the farms. If trees can grow, maybe corn will to. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Meadows Miller

Gday

SDonkey i think it was one of those good ideas at the time getting the seedlings for nothing from the goverment and just wacking them on the roughest most inacessable part of the bloody farm and making a killing out of them in stumpage 25 to 30 years down the track kinda things Mate ppl are working out that the indistrys changed over the last 30 odd years and bigger boys which are most of the contractors now wont go into blocs uner the 20 to 50 acre mark and that leaves alot of these blocks out of the picture  ;) :D :D :D

some blocks ive been offered are on steep country which ive said no to  ;) But  ??? I might get meself one o them yarder thingys s one of these days  ;) :D ;D as theres basicly a whole valley thats up for grabs on 35 to 45 deg country (aheap of small blocks 10 to 30 acres)that i know off ;) :D ;D 8) but then you get into roading and everything else that goes with it  :P :) ;) :D :D :D

Lj im working my butt off atm about 12 hr days + Mate   :) :) ;) :D :D :D ;D 8) but im just in a holding pattern till after xmass as ive taken on a business partener in the last month and theres alot of planning going on atm Its nice to know where things are heading for a change Mate  ;D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

SwampDonkey

They'll cut anything here when they need to keep machinery working to make payments. Of course now-a-days the finance company has repo'ed a lot because operating costs outstripped market price. Must be hard on the dealers with all that used iron they can't sell or finance.

Many of the annual conferences have been canceled the last two years, Silvacon being the biggest one. It's also the conference, where traditionally, the new forestry graduates get the "CIF Silver Ring" during the AGM of the Canadian Institute of Forestry, since 1967.

CIF Silver Ring Program
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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