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biomass

Started by Tug Hill Walt, June 25, 2009, 04:15:26 PM

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Tug Hill Walt

This may have been thrashed around before. Up here in central N.Y. every ecosalesman is talking about how biomass and particulary trees are going to solve all of our energy problems. Must be they see all the green and think free energy. There is not that much wood usable. Even now, with saw log prices down and fuel wood prices up a lot of good saw timber is being burned. These are the same idiots that screamed about sustainable harvesting not 5 years ago. 'Course, if the tres are all gone that makes more room to build houses, out of Chinese imported wood,probably.

ADAMINMO

Bet this becomes a restricted topic.

Jeff

Only if it gets political. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ADAMINMO

It has the stuff in it to evolve into that.

Kansas

I think a lot depends on where the fuel source comes from. Frito-Lay is in a big push to go green, and supposedly is putting in a biomass operation to fuel their topeka plant. I have heard that 85 percent will come from topeka from all the trees and such that are hauled to their forestry dump yard. Its getting to the point that sawmills, pallet companies, and municipalities cant burn their wood waste anymore. I think if its done right, it will be a good thing.
Also talked to the company that comes in and grinds our wood waste for mulch. Their thinking is that a lot of the current stuff ground for mulch will convert to biofuels. Also read something from the Missouri Forest Products Association that seemed to think the tops of what is logged would about cover biofuel needs in that state. I assume they were figuring when people started logging again.

Cedarman

According to an NRCS report about 5 years ago, cedar was taking over the state of Oklahoma at the rate of 762 acres per day.  We only take cedar from about 2 acres per day average, ( the field we are in now is only 1 acre per day because it is so thick). There are 1000's of acres just cut, pushed up and burned each year.  My pencil says that 300 to 400 truck loads per day could be harvested in the state just to stay even with the cedar encroachment.  Kansas has a big area, so does Nebraska, Texas and South Dakota.
To get back to the prairie state will require a whole lot of tree cutting.  Water tables drop severely under a cedar thicket, springs dry up, creeks dry up, and water levels drop in the river.  Not many tree huggars when it comes to cedar either.  That haze in the spring is as much likely cedar pollen as fog. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

DanG

I went down to Blountstown, Fl yesterday to look for a boat that was allegedly for sale.  The boat was alreay gone, but I passed through a thicket of Sand Pines that went on for about 40 miles.  Those trees were planted to feed the paper mill that closed down a few years back.  Sand Pines are only good for two things...Kraft paper, and biofuels.  There are thousands upon thousands of acres of them, as thick as fleas on a dog's back, and not a decent board in the lot of them!  There are also millions of acres of saw-quality pine plantations in the Southeast that are in desperate need of thinning, if they are ever to yield any saw timber.  Those thinnings have been hurting for a market for years, now.  Even so, we won't be able to become energy-independant from wood sources alone, but it can definitey be a major player among all the other alternatives to petroleum.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Rocky_Ranger

So true, there are so Dang many plantations of old CRP pine here it is remarkable.  There is lots of noise on the bio-energy Bill passed by the House yesterday and now going to the Senate.  Don't know if it is good or bad - had some pretty hot discussions last night on the talking heads shows.  Handled right, the biomass emphasis can kill several birds with a single stone;er, one fell swoop, anyway.... we leave a lot in the woods (everywhere) that can be used for energy!
RETIRED!

Kansas

This thread has suddenly become pertinent in the short term for me. Allow me to tell this story. Apologies for rambling.
We have an arrangement with a guy that arranges for a big grinder to come in and grind out slab piles a couple of times a year. He then wholesales the mulch. We didn't get paid for the slash but got paid to load the trucks he sends. We retail a much smaller amount of the mulch, mostly by pickups and farm trucks, etc. We then credit him back for the cost of the grinding for what we sell. This arrangement worked good until about a year ago, when his sales dropped way off. Part of it may be the economy. I suspect most of it is that he has way too many irons in the fire to effectively market it. When this started, the mulch product they wanted, and what we had, consisted of all the sawmill slash, junk logs, and most of the sawdust. We don't generate that much sawdust, as everything is bandmill. Now all of a sudden, his customers are complaining of too many fines. 2 years ago, when he sold out everything we had and tried to go with grinding another mill that didn't add the sawdust or the bark, his customers complained that it was too dry and not enough fines. He claims the market has changed in the last two years, on what customers want.
A few months ago, he passed the selling problem onto someone in his organization. This guy spends his time telling me he can't sell the mulch. I talked to him about possible biofuel sales in the near future in the area. He pretty well blew me off, wasn't even interested in listening.
This weekend, I found out from a guy in the Kansas Forest Service that an out of state company has contracted to supply a huge biofuel project nearby. They plan on needing to pull in material from as much as 100 miles away. We are about 30 miles away from this project. They are going around, and trying to get all the free material first. Mumicipal tree dumps, pallet companies, etc. After that, if they don't get enough, and it sounds like they won't, they will buy what is needed.
Today the outfit that sold the mulch wholesale came to me with a proposal. The grinding company would come in and grind all of our waste and haul it away, and not charge anything, on a one time only deal, to help us out. (Its now been almost a year since its been ground, and we are running out of room.) They claimed they couldn't sell the mulch, and didn't want to pay the grinding bill. The grinding company was going to try and screen the fines out, and then they could use it. Something about this raises just about every warning flag I know of.
That brings me to this question. Does anyone know, do biofuel plants pay for sawmill slash, or those that supply them? I smell a rat here.

WH_Conley

Me thinks yer nose may be correct. If there is any way that you can handle the room problem a little while longer, hang on and check around a little first. After a year, out of the goodness of their heart they are gonna clean yer mess up for ya? Yeah boy.
Bill

Tug Hill Walt

 In areas with a lot of non sawlog wood or stuff needing thinning burning for fuel makes sense. Enough fuel for a power plant to run for 25 or so years. otherwise it would'nt be worth the expense of building.
What got me wound up is my local school board wants to put in a wood fueled boiler system to heat 3 schools located about 2 miles apart by steam. Nobody knows how much wood would be needed or where it would come from.Not to mention moving steam 2 miles through a large village. Maybe they will propose hanging Pex tube from the phone poles.
  This is mostly hardwood country with most of the waste and thinnings already having a market. Mill waste and land clearing goes to a couple of colleges, logging tops and culls are in demand as home fuel. anything else is used for pellets.

breederman

I have not kept up with this stuff but I am guessing these projects are funded through N.Y.S.E.R.D.A.? You have to wonder if they would even be considered if not for the subsidies.
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