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General question, testing you guys, HELP

Started by Jeff, August 30, 2003, 06:20:38 PM

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Jeff

Here is a really obscure general question for this forum. Its a car problem. My sons car. I cant find anything on the net, maybe someone out there has an answer.

His 1991 Tornado Trofeo will not start. It is has whats called a VIC system. A compuer touch screen on the dash that all systems are tied to.
 It says when you try to start:
Anti theft system problem
Car may not restart.

From what I can find only 1000 of these cars were made and the electrical system was ahead of its time. Almost a concept type car.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Gus

Sounds like the anti theft system was activated or went south for some reason or another.
Need to find this anti theft devise and close the open circuit.
I had a ford van that had a devise like that it made the horn blow and opened the ignition harness so it woud not start.
I managed to find this rascal and diconnected it and spliced the wires together and walla, the horn quit honking and the van started.Ofcourse I had plenty of incentive. The horn would not stop until I found the problem.  :-/
Good luck, some of that stuff is tricky.
Gus
"How do I know what I think unless I have seen what I say?"

sawwood


 Jeff the Jeeps have a VIC unit but i don't know if the screen
 will display that message. We do have a anithef in the main
 computer. First have you tried unhooking the battery for a
 few minets and see if it will start ? Also does the key have
 a anithef chip in it ? You may have to find a repair center
 that can go into the mail computer and see what faults are
 there. Then they can look in the trouble code book that will
 tell you where to look for the trouble. Try the libary as they
 some times have motors for some of the cars out there.

 Hope this helps and if not give me more info on the car as
 to make, model, engine and any options it has.

 Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Jeff

Hey guys, this is Jeremy, Jeff's son. We did try unhooking the battery, I unhooked it and left it overnight, but to no avail when i hooked it up the next morning. The key itself does have a chip built into it also. The way everything stopped working was, I pulled into a gas station for gas, shut off my engine, fueled up, and when I came back out to start it, it just displayed that message my dad posted earlier. Everything inside the car works, except when i go to start it, its locked out the ignition. Any other info you need to possibly help me out let me know. I greatly appreciate your time for helpin out.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

sawwood


 Jeremy i sure you tested the battery but will ask any way
 check to see if the battery is fully charged? Ours will set
 the no start if the battery is low even if the lights come on
 dim. Outher than that check some of the auto parts stores
 they may have a computer testers that they will hook up
 for you.

 Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Bibbyman

For sure this could not be it ... Then again ....  My 94 Buick Roadmaster was doing some strange things with the electrical system – speedometer jumped when the turn signal blinked, the headlights dimmed when the breaks were applied.  Then it stated to die.  Sometimes it'd act like it didn't want to stat. Then it'd start and die again. Then it'd start and run fine for a day then next time it'd die. Had it in the shop more then out for three weeks.  They tried and tested a lot of stuff – including cleaning all the body ground points.  They finally found a loose connection at a power distribution stud under the dash.  It was a plated stud bolt about 3/8 x 1-1/2" long mounted in plastic.  Everything under the dash was powered by it – including the computer module for the climate control, anti-theft (it has a chip in the key), load leveling, etc.  They replaced that and it's been like a brand new car.  Even the gas mileage has improved.

You may try cleaning the ground connection points and seeing if you've got something like a power distribution stud under the dash.  (My Buick has another one under the hood near the firewall - so there may be more than one.)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

hawby

Jeff / Jeremy,

One possibility is that the electrical contact in the ignition, to the chip in the key may be dirty or corroded. Try spraying a good contact cleaner ( Be sure to cover anything that you may not want to be discolored or unpainted) down into the key slot of the ignition. If you have a small bottle brush or something similiar that you can push down into the slot and help to dislodge any dirt that may have accumulated in the past 12 years.

If that is not it, if you have a schematic of the electrical system, find where the key chip signal goes and try to sense (Use a voltmeter, scope, or twelve volt lamp) if the signal is being sent to the computer. You might have a broken wire in that circuit.

I tend to believe it is not making contact due to dirty contacts since it was fine up until you shut it off for gas. Good luck. I know it is a bear trying to find things like this, but it is better than an intermittant problem like Bibby had.

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

woodhaven

Just thinking,
 If it is truly a Anti theft system problem how are you getting in to try to start?
 Could be some other problem that the board doesn't see and reports Anti theft out of confusion.
Did the gas station have carpet on the floor? If so you may have picked up static on your shoes and when you touched the car you could have blown a fuse or shorted something? Kinda like slidding across the seat and getting shocked by the door handel.
Richard

David_c

If you have an extra set of keys you might wany to try them as the one may have a problem.

Den Socling

There is about a zillion "maybes". You need to find a mechanic with experience. For example, my son's Dakota wouldn't start one morning. After looking everywhere for problems and wasting money on a new ignition module (that you now have instead of points), I called a neighbor who is a mechanic at a Chrysler garage. I explained the problem, he asked what year (95), he told me to tear the wrap off the wiring harness at a specific spot and look for a corroded connector. I did and there was the problem. It was so corroded, I don't know how it ran for so long. And, after fixing that connection, the DanG gas gauge started working, too.

Jeff

We have checked every fuse both in the inside panel and also under the hood. I'll have Jeremy try looking atsome of the suggestions today. I feel its probably something simple. We called the olsmobile dealer and they offer any suggestions other then "bring it in"  Jeremy had to pay to get it towed here. We would have to two it to clare then they want another 100 just to look at it. I just got this feeling there is some hidden reset button that they will push once we would get it there. :-/
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

woodhaven

Here is my electrical lesson for today. Might be something you can use.
Yesterday my computer hard drive activity stayed on all day. I rebooted several times and it stayed on. Starting to worry at this point. When I turned it on this morning the hard drive led stayed on again. Then I noticed the CD drive led had come on at about half brilliance. Now I'm really concerned so I start looking at which one of my other computers I want to copy my hard drive to before something dies. My wife ask could it be humidity (could be cause I just had the power supply fail in my plotter) Dust/Humidity I have plenty of. So what the heck I took off the cover and blew 2 pounds of dust and dirt out. Turned system back on and Walla everything is fine.
Lesson for today:
Practice what I preach. I always tell everyone else to keep the systems cleaned out of dust.

Point is I guess.  Enough dust with enough humidity laying on it creates an electrical circuit.        Not Good for Electronics.
Richard

sawwood


 Jeff most cars have this Antithef in there computer control
 system. Why i don't know but our Jeeps have it. It may be
 as some have said a loose ground, a connector pin loose
 or that the battery was low enought to set it off. Elect is
 the most upsetting trouble to work on if you don't have a
 manual or wiring digram to go by. I had a 91 ford tempo
 that the cooling fan was not working and i spent a day
 looking for the trouble. Found a wiring digram and after
 looking at ir found a inline fuse link under the hood that had
 burned out. I would try to find a mechanic that will talk  to
 any may be he can lead you to the trouble or i know you
 don't want to but take it to the dealer.

 I work for a Jeep dealer and i some time think we charge
 to much for some repaires but these cars are gitting so
 computer control that it takes time to fix you spend all
 day and we only work on commision. Don't like to preach
 but but like a sawer a lot of hard work goes into sawing or
 fixing a car and we are trying to make a living. If you can
 hold off till Tuesday we have a Olds dealer next door and
 i can ask one of the mechanic about it.

 Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Mark M

Did you try Ctrl & Atl & Delete?

Check the owners manual and see if there is a reset procedure.


biziedizie

   Jeremy you gotta reset your VIC. Sorry bud but that's all you can do. :(
  There is a slight chance that pulling the battery cable off might reset it but I doubt it as it's got the anti theft thingy.
  If ya do try this leave the cable off for about 10 mins as there's a storage capacitor hooked to the VIC that will hold power for awhile to keep the memory.

    Steve

Jason_WI

I had a used 84 lincoln mark 7 that had all of the digital dash crap. nutting worked at the end. The digital odometer read Error, fuel gauge didn't work, air suspension system didn't work. Best thing I ever did was trade it in for a 92 Grand Prix. No digital dash and no problems. GM is just better anyway ;D ;D

Newer tractors have all this digital crap in them. Why, most farmers I talked to think its a waste. No wonder they cost so DanG much. Neighbor has one and has nuttin but problerms with all of the electric controls. I like levers for my hydraulic and PTO stuff. Analog gauges are just fine. Gehl skidsteers had a digital instrument panel for a while. I think they finally relized they made a mistake when skidsteers were in for service more that they were being used. Newer models have analog gauges again and that's just fine cause they WORK.

The problems here are usually vibration, and corrosion on autos. If the cable harness has green stuff in it at a connection that can short out signals or cause cross talk. Vibration can cause parts on circuit boards to fall off or get fractured solder joints. Most circuit boards in cars are not conformal coated except for the ignition module, usually those are potted in epoxy. Check those insulation displacement connectors, or easy connectors as some call them. Those should be illegal. I call them "Leave you stranded connectors"!!!  They cut through the insulation on a wire to make a connection but exposes the wire to the elements. Usually corrosion sets in and will cause the wire to break eventually. If you find those under the hood check those for corrosion.

Good luck.......

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

biziedizie

  Soooo do we get an update here or is Jeremy too busy digging holes??? ;D



     Steve

Jeff

We are waiting for tuesday to see what info Sawwood gets from the olds guys.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Den Socling

I guess you did a googlesearch?

I bet this guy knows the answer or where to get the answer.

http://www.islandtime.com/toro/

Jeff

Yes, we found that site den. All the links to the email list serve were broke as were links to sites thatlooked like they had relevant info and when we tried to email the guy, our email was kicked back. :-/
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Den Socling


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