new guy question, why do & how long,,,,,

[robotguy]

great forum here guys, new guy to this stuff,,, question; after a tree is felled, (logged) how long do you or do you let it sit until you can mill it, due to  (water content?) seasoning or ? . second question; can you *kill* the tree (ring-it thru the bark),  and let the tree season on the stump, & if you can, for how long can/should you leave it on the stump before you fell  &  mill it,, third question ;  in some tree lots in the area i live in (southern oregon) i have seen the lower 1/3 of the tree (evergreens) with the limbs trimmed off flush & also some trimmed with about 4 to 6 inches of the limb left on the tree ,  what advantage is this & which of these two is best, also how *old* must a tree be in general before this can/should be done
fourth question; how long on an average does a band saw blade last (miling evergreen softwood)  & what make/brand do you use/recommend.  as you can tell from the questons i am new to this stuff so when in doubt ask the pro,s  thanks !!!    robotguy      
  

[Jeff]

Welcome robotguy. I'll try to answer part of your questions. You should not let the logs set any longer then you have to. Green wood mills the easiest and the boards will come out the truest. I can think of no advantages to sawing dry logs. Girdling a tree and drying on the stump will only cause you to have a rough time sawing them out. Saw green as possible, same day if possible, then dry the lumber, not the logs.

I just wonder if what you are seeing in the evergreen woodlots is pruning versus self pruning. Many species of evergreens, when growing in plantations or in other close spaced situations will lose thier lower limbs as they grow.

[Minnesota_boy]

Only half in jest, I tell my customers that want me to cut white spruce to let me get the mill in position and then fell the tree.  White spruce is a dificult wood to mill true and the more moisture it loses the worse it becomes.  I really like sawing fresh cut wood much better than that which is partially dried.  Trees that are completely dry are much harder on blades and will make you change blades in half the time or less.

I use Woodmizer blades on my Woodmizer mill, so of course I'd recommend Woodmizer.  ;D  

On wood that has been skidded through the dirt, my blade will need to be replaced when dull, usually I get at least 200 bf before that happens.  On clean pine, I expect 400 to 600 bf before I need to change and occasionally I get over 1000 bf before I have to change.  

Young trees that are trimmed close will grow over the knot and will produce knot free wood outside this area.  Pine usually makes a hard knot. especially if trimmed when the limb is small.  I've seen hardwood that the limbs rot back to the center of the tree and degrade a great deal of the potential lumber, but that migh happen whether trimmed or not.

[Ron Wenrich]

There is absolutely no advantage to girdling and letting the trees dry on the stump.  You will only have hard logs, and you will get degrade, especially to the sapwood due to staining and bugs.  Effectively, you will lose the last 20 years of growth.

When pruning, you usually only prune the first 17' of the tree (is softwoods).  This is to encourage peeler logs, which are worth a whole lot more and make the pruning cost effective.  These are usually pretty close to the bark, so the tree can heal over it quicker.  I'll have to let the arborist comment on the reason for a branch stub.

I'm a circle man, so I can't comment on the band mills.

[Jeff]

There is absolutely no advantage to girdling and letting the trees dry on the stump.

I guess if we think historically and regionally, there is at least one reason. The Cypress used to be girdled and left to dry so it was buoyant enough to float and be drug from the swamps.

[Tom]

Saw your logs as soon after felling as possible.  I agree.  Not only does the wood saw easier but you do away with the chance of Blue stain and insect damage, which we suffer in pine.  I've even heard of some norther sawyers complaining of blue stain in hardwoods but I wouldn't know about that.

Most standing dead trees are quickly attacked by insects which attract woodpeckers.  Once the wood is compromised to the elements, it will begin to rot.  I hear of standing dead trees being used for log cabins and such but these trees seem to mostly come from colder climates.  Perhaps that is an aid to their weathering nature's attack.

It was taught, until recently, that pruning should be done close to the trunk. It is now the thought that proper pruning is done at, or just outside of, the limb crown.  It heal over faster.

I don't know of any benefit to leaving long twigs.  they would die and persist through the scar, leaving a loose knot in the wood. That's bad for lumber.

How long a  band saw blade last is a difficult question to answer.  It depends on so many things.  

Here are some of the variables. Length of blade, width of blade, size of band wheel, species of wood being cut, types of knots encountered, sharpness of the tooth, shape of the tooth, feed speeds and operators ability to maintain guides.  It also makes a difference as to how much horsepower you are able to take advantage of.   A small mill with few horses can not use a blade as close  to its potential as a mill with more horse power.  the smaller mill will cut slower and not remove as much wood.   The bigger mill will be able to drag the teeth through a bigger bite of wood which increases feed speeds without damaging the blade if it is kept within its operating ranges.  The faster you cut, the more you cut per blade sharpening.

Most of the medium size mills sporting 15 to 20 horse power are getting 400-600 feet per sharpening.  Mills with 24 to 40 are getting 600 to 1000 feet per sharpening.  I think that most who claim the upper limits are pushing a blade pretty hard and may not be getting as much of a total life as the person who is sharpening the blade after moderate usage.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've sawn lots of that standing dead oak from gypsy moth infestation.  Some buyers won't buy the wood since it is harder to dry.  In hardwoods, it does have a different texture.  It mills different, it smells different, it just ain't the same.

Blue stain only goes into the sapwood.  I don't want to lose that much of the growth.  Depending on weather conditions, that blue stain can set in within a week.  It drops FAS hardwoods down to 2 Com.  For most hardwoods, that's a loss of about 50--75%.

[Ianab]

Re - the timing of pruning

The idea with the lift pruning is to remove the lower branches as soon as possible. This allows the tree to grow high value clear wood around a small core of 'defect' wood containing the original knots. Radiata Pine is pruned intensively here in NZ, time of pruning is based on trunk size rather than age,  although of course the 2 are related. First prune is usually made when base gets to about 6 to 8 inches diameter, and all lower branches are removed untll the trunk gets down to about 4 inches. Once the trunk has grown to the 6 - 8 inches at the lowest branches the process is repeated untill the desired length of clear log is obtained. To give an example the trees may be pruned at 4, 6 and 8 years but this depands  on the area and the quality of the site. By this time there should be 18 to 21 ft of clear trunk. Trees would normally be havested at 25-30 years old and would have dbh of 30+ inches. I certainly wouldn't recommend this sort of pruning regime unless you had the climate and selectively bred tree stock that is available here... but hope it's of interest to know how things are done elsewhere

Ian

[Tom]

WOW! That sounds like a "super Loblolly", Thirty inches in thirty years. :P

[Gus]

A dead tree is harder to manipulate off the stump. Depending on size can also break giving the possability of ruining a good log. This is always a problem with green conifer trees with any real size to them.
Gus

[C_Miller]

Log home builders sometimes girdle trees so they are drier when they go to work with them.  Other than that the fresher the better.

I gotta try that felling the spruce on the mill deck trick, might help the waving situation.

C

[Tobacco Plug]

I gotta try that felling the spruce on the mill deck trick, might help the waving situation.

C

'Course it might put a "wave" on your mill deck!
 ;D

[Stephen_Wiley]

Robotguy,

I believe your questons concerning 'green wood' and 'band saw' have been addressed.  :P

So I would like to specifically, deal with your questions of:  tree bark girdling and consequences, Branch stub cutting (4"-6").

Some of the previous posts eluded to the bugs you would invite. I will reaffirm their position as you will certainly invite wood-eating insects. Which also act as vectors to intoduce funguses both pathogenic and saprophytic.  These organisms will cause further decay in you log material.

In addition, the extreme weather alterations and micro-climates which have occured in Oregon in the last ten years have resulted in a rise of these damaging agents. Most conifers are in a weakened or stressed state.  Which makes them undefensible against these organisms.  By..........girdling these trees you are increasing the likelihood of causing a endemic infestation to your woodlot (or adjacent) which you might otherwise desire to preserve.

BTW, in case you have not heard ........the 'feared' SOD (Sudden  Oak Death = Phytopthora ramorum) can exist as a foliar, stem invader (depending upon coniferr species) as well as in native and non-native shrubs . It will 'kill'  Madrone and Oaks just to name a few........  My advise (strongly) is to abandon the concept of :  Tree Bark Girdling.

Concerning the stubs,  this could be 'mechanized pruning' approximately 15 years ago research throught the PNW was being conducted in the economical feasibility of producing higer grade commercial logs. At that time a motorized 'circumference'  saw was devised consisting of several circular blades, which climbed the tree sawing .  Other mechanical means were tested as well.

It is hard to say if one of these devices has been used on the trees you mentioned or if the 'pruning' was done by an unexpeirenced crew.  To which the woodlot owner rather than having the 'heartbreak' of  flush cuts preferred to deal with the stubs at a later time.

Flush cuts result in what is commonly called in logging as  "Barber-chairing" which certainly further decreases 'log value'. :(

Take care,  and  protect your harvest :!:

[robotguy]

thanks for the info,, i found out this weekend that cutting the limbs of flush is the prefered way as the tree can  * sap-over* the area & protect it from bugs,  *stubbs * open the possability of entry to bugs & the tree will continue to try & feed that limb , also during growth , the stubb will rot & water may gain entry ,,, which leads me to my next question / who makes & where is this mechanical tree de-imber to be found oops,,, edited ths as i a learning the ropes on these here smiley faces ,,,

[Tom]

Robotguy,
it isn't proper to leave stubbs, you're right. But, the proper way to make the flush cut is to leave the "crown".  The crown is that portion of limb where it attaches to the trunk.  It's a thin layer that sometimes looks like a small rolled up piece of bark.  Leaving it allows the wound to close quicker.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Robotguy,

The information you received is a "rule of thumb" not to leave 'stubs' for entry ports.

However, flushing cutting is more harmful .........I guess I should have expounded more upon my response.

The 'crown' as Tom eludes too is better known as the 'branch collar' .

In a living tree the branch collar contains the ability to *seal* off through compartmentalization to prevent decay and promote structural heling.

By flush cutting your are removing this branch collar, thus not only causing structural weakness.......but breaking down the trees ability to protect itself from pests and pathogenic organisms.

In fact, by flush cutting you are expediting the process. In this application it would be better to leave stubs.

I do not recommend either, rather proper pruning techniques which cut the branch only to the collar and not into it.

Also, note that the amount of "sap-over" is not an indication of sealing. In fact it could be symptomatic of an improper cut.

[Craig]

Hi Robotguy,
The other posters about leaving stubs are correct, it's not good. When a branch is cut properly at the collar it will heal properly, flush cutting removes the collar and will not heal properly. follow this link and it will show you a good diagram of how the branch should be cut to avoid tearing bark off the trunk. http://www.rainbowtreecare.com/pdf/ProperPruningTechniques.pdf

Hope that helps!!
It's .pdf document so you need the adobe acrobat reader.

Craig

[Shamus]

Reading through these older posts, I thought I'd throw in my 2 loonies (canadian $1 coins) on pruning. I have been taught when pruning use the 1/3 rule. Never remove more than 1/3 of the live crown in one lift, or you will stress the tree out and slow down its growth. Pruning as an investment usually ain't worth it, unless you have valuable species on a good growing site and/or using fertilizer.

[redpowerd]

and here i thought you called them toonies :D

[chet]

Let's see by the 1/3 rule, dats only 66 cents.  ;D

[Shamus]

Factoring the exchange rate we are down to a fifty cent piece.
 Then factor in the metric conversion, let's see, how does that go? Oh yeah, double it and add twenty going the other way (the rule of thumb for ALL metric calculations. Like a case of beer in America is 12 beer. So for a metric conversion, double it and add 20 gets you 44 beer in a case, what we call a flat.  :P) So that brings us back up to $1.20, but we don't have a coin for that eh? That's one loonie and two schooners.  The 'twoonie' is our $2 coin. I hope this helps... ???

[J_T]

Never drink water from a hollow stump ;D

[Mark M]

Speaking of cutting only a third of the crown reminds me that in order to have a healthy lawn you should only remove 1/2 the grass at a time. So what I do now is cut the front yard one week and the back yard the next.