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sawmill buisiness

Started by board, May 14, 2009, 06:27:17 PM

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board

hello, i am new at this so if my questions sound dumb thats why. was wondering if a pearson could make a living running a sawmill, one that cuts around a 24 in. log. ive been doing constrution for 23 yrs. so i am not used to big money. i have small bandsaw i used last winter for building a log home for my wife and i. and really enjoyed it. also do you do better doing custom sawing from logs customers bring or should you buy your own logs.
paul

Bibbyman

Yes.

Welcome to the Forum!  8)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Banjo picker

Bibby i want to come visit you  one of these days   those 5 years on me have made an immeasurable difference in wisdom.   :D ;D ;) 8)  I'm learning from the man down under. :) as well .. Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

old joe

Welcome to the forum.  There as many viable business plans as there types and sizes of mills.  I'm sure you'll get lots of advice, all of it good.  And all of it different.  Your job is to pick out what feels right to you.

Joe
THE NEW YANKEE TIL A NEWER ONE ARRIVES THEN I\'LL BE THE OLD YANKEE

board

  thanks for the advice .any is helpful. i have lots of questions u probably get tired of it. next question.what is a good sawmill to start out with. i have a mini sawmill i bought from hudson 16 in. i know its not big or durable enough. would like to stay under 15,000 if possible
paul

Brad_S.

Welcome to the forum!
Tough racket to be in but yes, you can make a living.
Here is a thread you may find interesting.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,11361.0.html
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Dan_Shade

unless you have a lot of free labor, i don't think I'd try to make a go of it full time with a machine without hydraulics.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

board

thanks brad great thread.
paul

DRB

Yes you could make a modest living off of a small mill.  You will work your butt off doing it but seeing as you have worked the construction trade you are probably used to 16 hours days of hard physical labor already. The hydraulics advice is good as working alone your biggest issue will moving heavy object around.  Get the biggest mill you can afford that is the most automated you can afford. Also consider you will need something to move logs and lumber around, at the least a small forklift, figure that into your initial investment.  If your just doing custom sawing storage of lumber will not be an issue but I do not think you will be able to not start hoarding lumber as that goes with owning a mill. So beforehand figure out where you can stack lumber outside to air dry and where you can build a storage shed to keep dry lumber in. Your small mill is an asset you could start out right now advertising a log squaring business to make log homes from and you could do it on site. That could start out as a weekend job and you could work it into something more once you get a bigger mill.  True it will not be what you want to end up with but for cutting small log house sized logs it will do the job.  Last the advice I give everyone contemplating a small business venture is to not expect to make any real profit the first year so be prepared to live off of savings or another job while getting the business established.

Ron Wenrich

Think about used equipment.  Its a lot cheaper.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Cedarman

Make a business plan on paper and it should be a dozen or so pages long.  It should have 3 sections.  Raw material, production, marketing.  Where will you get your wood?  No guessing allowed.  What level of production is realistic?  What equipment will it take for each level?  Don't forget the need for tools, welder, steel, tape measures etc.  Who will buy your wood or services? You can't be bashful on this one.  Talk to lots of people and see if you  can find what they want and what they will pay for it.  This forum will go a long way in helping you know where to look for those answers.
Good luck, you will find it exciting.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Night Raider

I've discovered a few things over the last 5 months that I've had my 'personal' mill.  I originally got it as a fun toy and I've modified it and welded a steel frame so now it's fully portable and can be pulled with my 15 year old car.  I've found in my area (more urban) people love their trees.  I have someone who had their favorite tree in the whole world, a white pine, fall down at their cottage (old family cottage he's been going up there his whole life) 2 years ago and he's going to have it trucked down to me (4 hour drive) so I can mill it up, I warned him there will be some staining and probably lots of rot.  This is the type of part time work I'd enjoy getting involved in, I don't have a high production mill, but it's very portable and because I don't have $20,000 tied up in it the cost isn't so high.  The people who have these sentimental trees are more then happy to pay a few hundred bucks to have one tree cut up, because it's their tree, the one they grew up with, the one their kids climbed when they were little etc...  These people are also really grateful and happy to see the lumber which is a bonus.
Just watch out for nails...

Good Luck

board

just wanted to say thanks for all the info. looks like the pros. out do the cons to me. as far as hard work i am one of those guys who goes nuts when not doing anything.right now i am laid-off and its raining out , so im' perty much going crazy. next question, i live in illinois, new boston, about 50 miles south of moline. was wondering where a guy could buy logs,how much a average load of pine cost,what size are they, how many you get.ect...     i cut my own logs for my house out of a state forest, 225 to be exact ,but they will not let you cut for resale.
paul

ARKANSAWYER

  Take a weeks vacation and come to Arkansas, bring your gloves.  I will give you a crash course in how to starve to death while working like a fool.  Your head will just about explode from all you will learn and your back will kill you.  For what it will cost you it will save you 10 times more.  Most people who come do not go into the sawmill business.
ARKANSAWYER

flip

I will have to be the discenting member here.  I agree with Arky, if you are looking to make a living (even modest) you will be one of the very few able to make a go of it.  I think if someone here makes a poll and everyone is honest about the answer 98% here mill as a hobby .5% are mobile .5% are stationary band sawyers and the other 1% are circle guys.  Save your $$ and use it as a side biz.  My .02 

Someone once said if you want to make a million in the sawmill biz start with 2 million.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Bibbyman

Quote from: flip on May 15, 2009, 03:59:09 PM
I will have to be the discenting member here.  I agree with Arky, if you are looking to make a living (even modest) you will be one of the very few able to make a go of it.  I think if someone here makes a poll and everyone is honest about the answer 98% here mill as a hobby 1% are mobile sawyers and the other 1% are circle guys.  Save your $$ and use it as a side biz.  My .02

We're making a living from our sawmill business and we ain't mobile or circle and it's certainly not a hobby.  Honest.

Seriously,  I would think that you're idea of custom sawing and building log and timberframe buildings could work well together – provided you have the skills and can develop the business volume.   

But there is a lot more to making a business than having a mill and willing to do hard labor.  You have to have a lot of business skills too.  Insurance, taxes, expenses, etc. can be as much of a burden as sawing on a manual mill.  I'm lucky in that Mary takes care of most all that.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

flip

Quote from: Bibbyman on May 15, 2009, 04:08:19 PM
Quote from: flip on May 15, 2009, 03:59:09 PM
I will have to be the discenting member here.  I agree with Arky, if you are looking to make a living (even modest) you will be one of the very few able to make a go of it.  I think if someone here makes a poll and everyone is honest about the answer 98% here mill as a hobby 1% are mobile sawyers and the other 1% are circle guys.  Save your $$ and use it as a side biz.  My .02

We're making a living from our sawmill business and we ain't mobile or circle and it's certainly not a hobby.  Honest.

Seriously,  I would think that you're idea of custom sawing and building log and timberframe buildings could work well together – provided you have the skills and can develop the business volume.   

But there is a lot more to making a business than having a mill and willing to do hard labor.  You have to have a lot of business skills too.  Insurance, taxes, expenses, etc. can be as much of a burden as sawing on a manual mill.  I'm lucky in that Mary takes care of most all that.


I included you in one of the few that are able to make it. 

I can't speak for the situation.  I do know if the plan is to make money sawing it takes, a market first and foremost, an unfilled need for the service and equipment/capital to get started.  You will not make a living with a 16hp manual mill, don't care who you are. 

I had grand ideas of making my hobby into a side business with hopes of eventually hiring someone to runn it full time.  I have a 25 HP hydraulic mill that I spent $18K for plus another $3K for an edger without an engine.  Spent another couple grand on maint. on the mill, business cards, flyers and news paper ads.  Had a couple big jobs I fought and basically broke even on because of poor planning on my part and the customers.  People wanting you to come out and quote cutting 2 POS logs and having them die when you tell them $250 to make it worth your time.  I get about 1 call a month to come out and look at some logs, meh.  Not worth it to me any more.  You want your stuff sawed, bring it to me and I'll get it in a week or so. 

If you have $20-40K to get started in ernest and lots of disposable $$ go for it.  It will take 6 months to a year to figure your market out and what your customers can stand bill wise.  Good hobby not so good full time bidness, IMHO.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Cedarman

I started out with an LT30 manual in 1983.  We custom sawed and made enough to help out with the custom hay business.  In 1987 we started sawing some cedar and the company eventually said, you saw it , we will buy it.  But this lucky break does not happen all that much.  We expanded and when we put the Alabama mill in, it was 1/2 million with a lot of it borrowed.  We still saw at the Indiana mill, but closed the Alabama mill when Cedarworks sold out.  We got lucky again when we were able to get good money for our mill equipment.  So being in the right place and right time has a lot to do with success too.
The one negative of custom sawing is that it seems so easy to get into that a lot of people do it and this generates a lot of competion.  But this just means you must work smarter than most of the others.  It will be tough.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

board

i am not looking to get rich at this, was just wondering if a guy could average say around 500 to 600 a week over a years time. given i advertise and do alot of talking.  i live in a farming community, lots of farmers,didnt know if that would be good for business or not. there are no other mills around this area.
paul

flip

5-600 take home or gross?  If you want take home and you are figuring in blades, fuel, maint. and do it all by yourself it would be a stretch and you would be a dead man at the end of the day.  What about the winters and inclimate weather, do you have a barn or shed you can saw in?

Please don't take my comments as it's impossible or it can't be done.  Look at it like this.  If you charge .30/bf to get $600 gross, you have to saw out 2,000 bf/week which does not figure in any maint, blades, fuel.  I don't know what kind of mill you have but if you are solo, have a manual mill and no help you will either be dead by the weeks end or in need of a loooong vacation.  How many jobs will you have where you will be set up on one location and sawing only one or 2 logs.  Do you have access to equipement where you can pick up and deliver?  Do you really want 3 or 4 thousand dollars worth of logs sitting in your yard hoping someone comes along and wants 2X4s or 1Xs before they degrade to the point of uselesness?  Do you know what kind of material people want to buy?  Got a lot of extra space to stack and sticker lumber piles?  Like I stated earlier, there are some folks here that have markets Cedarman, Bibbyman, Arky that are making it but for the rest of us it is a glorified hobby/side business.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Bibbyman

We started out with and LT40G18 manual Wood-Mizer mill with 18hp engine.  Mary and I could saw 1,000 to 1,500 bf a day with good logs.  When Mary took over sawing full time and I still had my "day job", she could often saw at least 500 bf a day by herself and about 750 being the norm (plus keep up her "other work"). 

Being the only mill in the area could be good and bad.  Good that there is no competition, bad in that there is not likely any loggers to bring you logs.  For the past couple of years I've documented the problems we've had in getting logs – not enough, too many, junk, etc.

Log lot management problems
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Kansas

If you have the ability to cut 225 logs on a hudson and build your own log home, I think you could make a very good living with a better mill. If I were you, I would use your talents and head that direction. There are too many big mills cutting pallet lumber, railroad ties, and grade lumber to make a decent living trying to compete with even an upgraded bandmill  Small mills have a hard time competing in those areas without killing yourself. Its okay to do some of that stuff in slower times, but you need a lot better margins on other specialty products to go with it.  This housing market is going to break loose before long, and if you can provide those products that are harder to find, along with the knowledge and/or labor to install those products, I think you would be a lot better off. You might get 45 cents for white oak a board foot on a railroad tie, or get 3 times that for lumber to build a deck. Don't be afraid to charge decent money. If you are good, they will pay.

sgschwend

Put in time to study your market.  Keep in mind that a good market means you can make money at the work too, not  just that you can provide a service and don't expect it to be a stationary target.

I would say it might take up to two years to fully expand into the market you have selected.  Trying to push your  business faster won't be helpful.

I do operate my sawmill service full time, and can achieve earnings comparable to a school teacher's pay (which is not very much and this earning includes taking a tax write off).  I also maintain my own equipment and the equipment has been setup so that I can run everything single handed.  I had hoped I could develop this business with only the sawmill and pick-up truck, that didn't work, I take my hat off to folks that can work that way (if there are any).  Yes I am portable, my market focus is cutting small volume for homeowners.  I wouldn't call it custom cutting, rather a portable cut to order service.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

DanG

Quote from: board on May 15, 2009, 05:44:38 PM
i am not looking to get rich at this,

That's a good start, right there! :D ;)  IF you can equip yourself without borrowing any money, I would encourage you to get into it on a part-time basis at first.  I sure wouldn't quit a good paying job to go full time right off the bat, though.  There is a serious learning curve in the sawing part, as well as the business end of the business.  If, for instance, you have a few grand laying around that you can use to equip yourself, and you have a Wife with a good job, you might make a go of it.  If, on the other hand, you are the only bread winner, and you have to borrow to get the mill, look in another direction unless you're willing to be very poor for a while.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

board

i agree with u DANG i wasnt going to quit my job overnight i just want to learn as much as i can about the buisiness be for i invest alot of money into it. i still would like to give it a try. thanks for all the good advice. got some more ?s for bibbyman , getting late get back to u tomorow
paul

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