iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Is this Tongue and Groove Technique Safe and effective?

Started by tbrickner, April 29, 2009, 10:38:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tbrickner

Hi folks:

I was wondering if this tongue and groove tree felling technique was safe and effective?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLkgWFh9lDs&feature=related

It looked like it may be a good technique for back leaning trees.  My worry is that this could barber chair on you or that you could loose some of your tree control cutting the back cuts too high with a traditional notch.

I wonder if this technique would work better with a humboldt cut?

Any Thoughts,
Tom


madhatte

I've used it on snags up to 18" with great results.  Beyond that, I have no experience.  I suspect that there is a point of diminishing return where the wedge is insufficient to break the holding wood free and thus renders this technique ineffective and perhaps even dangerous. 

beenthere

Appears to work ok. I was a bit tickled by the "monster" maul used to drive the steel wedge.  :D :D

When the time comes to raise that side of the tree, I'd want something that meant business. A narrower wedge would make more sense too, but for palm trees, it worked for the video.

I'd make the backcut a bit closer to where the wedge was placed, and use a low angle plastic wedge.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

GASoline71

You couldn't pay me enough to use that weird technique... I guess it has it's place somewhere cuttin' peckerpoles.  Notice he's cuttin' a palm tree... doubt that would work on a Doug Fir...  :D :D :D

Plus the blowhard touting it... is scetchy at best.  How many tree guys do you know that are drivin' splitting wedges with a framing hammer?

Just stick with a conventional or a Humboldt... EZPZ

Gary
\"...if ya mess with the bull... ya gets the horn.\"

chucker

  hummm ? never seen this type of felling! interesting at least.....
respect nature ! and she will produce for you !!  jonsered 625 670  2159 2171/28"  efco 147 husky 390xp/28" .375... 455r/auto tune 18" .58 gauge

Meadows Miller

Gday

It looks like a waste of bloody time and abit unsafe to me mate  :o :) :)  ::) ::) ;) :D :D :D

Reguards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Maineloggerkid

I have done something similiar on really small back leaners. I make the side cuts level with the wedge, though. I try to aviod this, it just is a lot of work for a little tree. Something this size, I would just put my shoulder into.
JD 540D cable skidder, and 2 huskies- just right.   

Loggers- Saving the world from the wrath of trees!

Meadows Miller

Gday

Maine a good 3' Fiskers felling bar does the trick for me also you can get em through Husky dealers  ;) ;D 8) it saves me sholders too mate  ;) :D ;D ;) and i only have to wedge maby 1 in 100 trees when im falling usually get the rest to go where i want em just with the rite scarf  ;) ;D 8) 8)

Reguards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

John Mc

There was another thread with that same video a while back

IMO what is shown on the video is a mis-use of the technique. The tongue and groove has nothing to do with steering the tree. It's used when you have a back leaner that is too small to allow you to drive a wedge in very far ... you hit the back of the hinge before you get much lift. Boring through from the front of the notch makes a space for the wedge to pass through the hinge area. As shown there, he didn't need to go to the trouble with this one... it fell before his wedge hit the hinge anyway. Also, since the T&G itself is not the goal -- it does no steering -- there is no need to offset the back cuts so far. You offset them just enough to avoid hitting your wedge.

He left out one important part. After boring through from the front, you should offset the width of one saw kerf up or down and bore again, but just deep enough to go through the hinge wood (not all the way out the back). This opens up a bit more space for the wedge, so if you have to drive it way in, it will still be lifting the back of the tree, and not trying to lift the hinge itself (which would risk breaking the hinge). I would also use a plastic felling wedge, not the metal splitting wedge he's using.

I've used this a number of times felling small back-leaners. It works well for me, especially since I don't tend to carry a felling bar with me (that would be yet another tool I lost when I set it down somewhere after a cut... though I have to admit there are times I wished I had one with me. It's faster than the T&G type cut.)

I've never noticed any problem with getting the "holding wood" to break. The key is to make sure you've severed all the fibers with your back cut (offset these cuts from the wedge, so you can overlap the bore cut the wedge is in by just a bit).

John Mc



If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Rocky_J

Oooorrrr, you could just make your felling cut closer to the ground and then throw your shoulder into it, as someone mentioned above. If it's that small then pushing 4'-5' above the hinge with your shoulder will probably give you the leverage to push it over. If it's too big to push then it's probably big enough to use a more conventional cut anyway.

Oh, and I love the steel splitting wedge and the picture hanging hammer he borrowed from the kitchen drawer.  :D

Al_Smith

I didn't even bother to look at the vid clip once I saw the company logo in the background . :D

It's kind an over dramatization of tripping a fence post sized tree .We have weeds that large here in the big cornfield . :)

isawlogs


Al , do ya use the discbine on them there weeds, or do you need change the head on the combine .  ??? :D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Al_Smith

Well,that was sort of  an exaggeration . :D

That vid clip has floated around for a few years and receives about the same comments on every web forum it gets played on much to the exacerbation of the author . Which is all I'll say on that matter ,just because I'm such a nice guy---today . 8)

nmurph

i have used it several times on back-leaners. it will move trees that can't be moved with your shoulder. on heavy leaners i cut a little and drive the wedge a little, then repeat until it topples.

Sprucegum

My big complaint is that stupid music  >:(  >:(  I just want to hear what the guy is trying to teach. If it has to be jazzed up with music to get my attention it obviously ain't worth learnin'  >:(  >:(

Don't get me wrong, I like music; in the choir, in the dance hall, anywhere but on a job that needs focus.

End of rant  :-*

Dave Hanny

I'm no expert, but the whole 'little hammer' thing does help point out the technique vs. using force.

I'd like to see someone else do a video on the same technique, or close to it - but either use a second camera or get some shots of the whole tree's back lean vs. the direction you want it to go. 
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. 
-- Buddha

beenthere

Quote from: Dave Hanny on May 06, 2009, 12:11:21 AM
I'm no expert, but the whole 'little hammer' thing does help point out the technique vs. using force.
.......

Dave
I also can't claim any 'expert' status, but my take on the little hammer and the fat wedge really meant that this demonstration tree was already leaning toward the fall line, and didn't need much 'lift' in the cut to sever the wood along the grain and get the tree to fall.

Had it been a back leaner (where this technique would be applied), then a much narrower/thinner wedge (at least) and preferably a larger hammer would be in order. My thoughts anyway.

When doing that technique, one doesn't want that wedge to spit back out at the critical time, letting the tree set down on that saw cut and closing it tight. A person likely would not have the luxury of getting another wedge set in place, and moving the top of the tree against a lean is much more challenging (and a lot dicier getting a rope tied for pulling it over).

I think the thoughts that go into "reviewing" the demonstration, make the discussion worthwhile. The problem trees are where one needs to have some good ideas what works and also some ideas what might not work, before getting caught in a dangerous situation.  :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Hawkshoe

That was purty cool, but I was hopin he would drop it on the truck.....................I like em videos! ;D ;D ;D
Made by the Maker
Bought by the Buyer
Broken by the Breaker

nmurph

actually, the more back-lean a tree has the taller the wedge needs to be. i use splitting wedges if i really need to jack one over. i have also done the tongue and groove and then added a second notch above and wedged it to move a tree against the lean when i ran out of wedge with the splitting wedge. try it sometime when you have a back-leaner and have plenty of room to run if you don't get it  right the first time. i think you will be suprised at what you can accomplish and you will have a new tool in your bag.

GASoline71

If you're usin' metal splittin' wedges to drive trees over... good luck...  :o they don't have the surface area or length to effectively lift a tree... you are better off stackin' platic fellin' wedges.  They are designed to do the job.  There are fellin' wedges with different tapers and lengths to drive over leanin' trees safely.  There are evn some with rifled groves to aid in stacking them.  I have only had to satck wedges a few times in my life... usually only one or 2 well placed wedges is all that is needed.  Also a good single bit axe helps too... not a hammer or a maul...

If you've been doin' it with a splittin' wedge and have had no problems... you are lucky.  Keep doin' it, and one day your luck is gonna run out.

Gary
\"...if ya mess with the bull... ya gets the horn.\"

John Mc

That "tongue and groove" technique is intended for small trees. It basically opens up a place fro the wedge to go through without having it bottom out on the back of the hinge. With the trees I use it on, they are small enough that it doesn't take a lot of force to tip them. A splitting wedge would probably work fine (in fact, PSI on the surface area of the wedge when using a splitting wedge on a 6" tree is probably less than the PSI using a plastic felling wedge on a 12" tree).

Having said that... I never use a splitting wedge for felling. I don't want the steel wedge anywhere near my chain, and don't want to carry the weight of it around with me. I know I'll need the plastic wedge for the bigger trees, so I adapt my technique to use the same wedge with the smaller trees.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

nmurph

i actually started using this technique with bailey's felling wedges. i also have cut wedges from some oak that i split. to me the splitting wedge works best. i am not concerned with the fact that they are metal, as i am 1-2 inches above them. i cut then tighten the wedge and repeat.

WMcGinn

 8)If I find me one of those Palm Trees on my place I'm gonna try this.   8) 
There's plenty of room for all God's creatures...... right next to the Mashed potatoes.

Thank You Sponsors!