Why are stumps cut so high out west?

[lonewolf]

 I have been watching the Ax Men series on tv and wonder why the stumps are so high. If I cut them that high here in the Midwest I'd be out of work in a quick hurry.

[chucker]

  the bottom of a tree that is cut from the stump is called a butt end. when the butt end is flared to much its called a bell end, and when set on a carraige to be milled there is a lot of waste.. so to deminish the amount of waste from haveing to recut or shorten a log the stump is usually cut above the bell.. hope this answers your question??

[Tom]

We get swelled butts on cypress in the SouthEast.  They go along with the log and custom sawyers get V grain patterns from them for use in door panels and try to salvage some of the enterior of the butt to lengthen the boards.  The problem is that the wood in the butt is a different density wood than the rest of the tree and it becomes false economy.  Bowl turners have no problem with the butts and search them out.  Mulch mills don't mind them at all.

I figured that the high stumps in the NorthWest were because of the "Tall" loggers.  We have shorter loggers on the East side of the continent.  It might have something to do with the eastern side being a little more stable.  The Western side seems to be threatened with a lot of earth quakes.  I figure it's the weight of all those tall people.

'Course Texas, and that strip that runs east northeast of it, into Arkansas, is threatened a lot by tornados and other high wind storms  I figure that is because of all the hot air that gets released there.  :D

[Texas Ranger]

Pot, meet kettle! 8)

[Kevin]

When I get a tree with excess butt swell or root flare I'll rip it off and cut the tree low.
That would be a considerable amount of work for a large tree on the west coast, time is money and they need to fill the trucks on time.

[ErikC]

Heavy Chainsaw + bad back = tall stump. That's how my math works out anyway ;D

[Jeff]

I think it has more to do with two factors.  Resins that collect in the western conifer's butts that cause that wood to be of low value and very hard to cut, the reason why the old loggers used spring boards and cut high,  and also the fact that many of those trees are on steep grades. They may be cut at ground level on the upshill side, and be 4 foot high on the down hill side.

[ErikC]

 We were just having a little fun Jeff, but you're right.

[redprospector]

Yep, Jeff hit the nail on the head.
I'm not on the west coast, but we do have a lot of similarities (except our trees aren't as big  ;D).

Andy

[John Woodworth]

On the West Coast we are reuired to use the Humbolt undercut which is the oposite of what you use on the East Coast. The scalers will deduct for using the standerd undercut in 2' lengths and depending on the scaler, what kind of day he's having and the company it can get mighty expensive.

When using the Humbolt cut you cannot put the cut low to the ground like a standard cut plus terrain and log market quality also figer in as well, with log prices where the are today and trucking where it's at doesn't pay to ship something that could end up being long butted at the log yard.

[lonewolf]

Thanks for the info guys it makes sense not to send something to the mill they can't use or will dock you for. It just seems to me that they are fighting those stumps all the time. I don't like to have to go down and throw a roll on a log that hooks on a stump and normally only use 110 ft. of mainline. Seems to me if they cut em lower things would be easier. I often cut down a tree that I know I'll have to butt off and still cut it as low as I can. It helps the trees to stump sprout better and makes the skidding easier.

[SwampDonkey]

........ that many of those trees are on steep grades. They may be cut at ground level on the upshill side, and be 4 foot high on the down hill side.

This is the case where I worked. Stump height is determined from high side. We have cruised many stands out there on 60 % side slope and you have to take the tape with about 4 meters extended beyond your hand and whip it around the back of the tree. It has a hook on the end that catches in the bark. Then you can grab it and try to shimmy it up to the DBH line. Sometimes your partner has to take a stick and push up the tape or unsnag it from bark and stubs to get it level. Similar with the feller, he has to cut from high side. If you take a still picture of a cut block it could look like relatively flat ground depending on aspect and tilt of the camera. In coastal BC, residue and waste surveys determine if there is waist on a harvest block, even measures stump heights from point of germination on high side, not necessarily height from standing position. Point of germination might be 10 inches above your feet if the tree germinated on a nurse log. I've seen hemlock growing out of 4 foot wide cedar logs. ;)




From the BC timber Cruising Manual. Note, if POG is higher than high side the DBH line moves up in relation to it.

[mike_van]

For cable yarding, tall stumps don't look to be too much of a problem. For a skidder though, ouch -  >:(     Years back, some New England contractors wanted then tall, as they got a little more leverage with the dozer pushing them out. That was before 'excavator' became a household word here.

[Kevin]

THe heli loggers are boring the trees in two places at the trunk so they wouldn't be able to market where they cut into the tree, that's one reason some of their stumps might be higher.

[stumphugger]

Heavy Chainsaw + bad back = tall stump. That's how my math works out anyway ;D

It depends on what is in the CONTRACT.   The contracts I work with specify a 12 inch maximum stump height, measured on the uphill side.  The older contracts, when bigger trees were being cut would say 12 inches or 1/3 the diameter, whichever is greater. 

You can cut a snag higher for safety reasons, but may or may not be required to then cut the stump down to meet the requirements. 

Reasons to legitimately leave high stumps? 

Steep steep ground, where the leave trees are either non-existant or too far apart.  This kinda sorta keeps the logs from rolling away downhill, although not always. 

When clearing a road--more leverage for the dozer or excavator.

Cutting a schoolmarm with the fork low enough.

Decking--you need high stumps to hold the log deck on a slope.

Rigging--you need a higher stump to use for guylines, block or an anchor.

Axemen is not a good show to watch for how things really work in the woods.  There's a lot of staged stuff--the "downhill logging" is the most recent blatant one.  If you catch a rerun, note that the landing is actually uphill from the lowest point on the unit.  They had to ram the logs on purpose into the yarder.  It seems to be getting worse. 

[beenthere]

THe heli loggers are boring the trees in two places at the trunk so they wouldn't be able to market where they cut into the tree, that's one reason some of their stumps might be higher.

Kevin
I missed that explanation. ??
???

[crtreedude]

'Course Texas, and that strip that runs east northeast of it, into Arkansas, is threatened a lot by tornados and other high wind storms  I figure that is because of all the hot air that gets released there.  :D

I thought it was because they keep twirling around trying to keep an eye on those on the coasts...

[SwampDonkey]

As stumphugger points out, stump guyline anchors are also left tall for rigging. But they would be planned for and not a multitude of high stumps being left. Also, only certain species make good stump guyline anchors. Stumps have been used for cribbing of road material on steep slopes as well. Some standing trees are used as back spars and make use of stump anchors as well. If trees are not sparred than an excavator is used to back spar sometimes. The system is designed to gain ground clearance to either (or both) clear leave trees and the ground.

During the 1980's (possibly for much longer) many coastal logging areas suffered from ground gouging. The term "side-hill gouger" was used a lot. A mythical beast much talked about around the Halloween season in western Canadian mountain country. ;D

I'm not sure that increment boring of trees on the heli-logged sites would cause them to cut stumps high unless there was punk in the buts or something.

[Kevin]

beenthere;
The fallers will bore into the trees at the base to see if they are hollow or contain rot prior to having the helicopter fly them out and later discover they are waste at the landing.
Too much money involved to be taking chances.
If I'm not mistaken one of the crew cut into seven trees before he finally found a good one.

[beenthere]

Got it Kevin. Thanks

[tyb525]

Where did that post from crtreedude come from??

[nas]

We get swelled butts in the SouthEast because of all the hot air that gets released there.  :D

Ty
The same place as this one :D :D

[Paul_H]

   The contracts I work with specify a 12 inch maximum stump height, measured on the uphill side. 

Exactly the same here.Any stumps that need to be left higher are X'd with the saw and a note is made by the faller or bullbucker.