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Pondering a move.....guidance for me?

Started by mstine, April 18, 2009, 08:31:24 PM

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mstine

Hello eveyone, this is my first post to this board.  I joined because I am thinking about starting my own milling business across the country in Maryland (I currently live in Portland, Oregon).  I have been thinking about this opportunity for some time, but now I am getting more serious.  I do not, however, have all of the pieces put together for beginning this business.  For those who have experience at this, and would like to offer me reading material, leads, suggestions or whatever I am currently a sponge hoping to soak up a lot of information.  I have contacted a local mill owner, but his schedule is tight so time to meet with me is probably not on his priority list - understandably.

My primary goal is to harvest trees that are taken down in the urban environment by tree care companies.  This means people's backyards, planter strips, etc.  I will also be contacting municipalities to "salvage" trees that come down on public property.  My goal thus far is to sell my kiln-dried products to furniture amkers, cabinet shops, and, one day, hardwood floor installers.

My mother-in-law has a 300-acre farm where my operations will take place.  That seems to be the biggest piece of at least getting started.  For those of you who pick up your own logs, how do you load them?  I was thinking about a grapple on a trailer.  What kind of kilns do most people use?  Who are the most common customers?  Where can I find information about the techniques for milling?  I have already seen and read a lot from people onthis forum, and learned a lot.  That's enough for now.  Thank you all so very much in advance!

low_48

First the usual welcome to the forum. There is a wealth of info here. Search for posts by Kelvin, but be prepared for bad news when dealing with tree service guys. You're not planning this for the near future, right? 'Cause nobody is buying or building. Probably one other thing you should consider is firewood. I'll defer to the real experts, but many have tried your plan, and it ain't easy.

fishpharmer


mstine, welcome to a most wonderful place.  You are wise to join with many people that can answer all your questions in detail, I am sure.  I will offer my $0.02.  The wood and lumber business I cannot really give good advice about specifically.   Business in general, I would offer this. 

It is always best to have a ready known market before you start a business.  Now the market can be one that you create yourself.  I would definetely do some research in the area you are planning to enter.  Before you ever move or buy any equipment you need to make a list of potential customers from, if nothing else, the yellow pages, or, go to the local chamber of commerce (or call).   I think in the present economic environment it pays to know your market. 

When I got into the fish business, it was sort of a niche.  People approached me wanting a very specific size and species of fish I could produce.  That made marketing real easy for me.  As I have expanded its a little more difficult.

A market is your biggest piece of getting started.  Having a 300 acre farm as a base of operations sounds great too.  How does maw in law feel about the business?  Is it a working farm?  Are you gonna run the farm too?  Does the wife have siblings?  How do they feel about Brother in law taking over the farm.  Is there timber on the farm? Can you have it for free? Or on a percentage?   Stuff to think about, I  promise.

Quote from: mstine on April 18, 2009, 08:31:24 PM
My mother-in-law has a 300-acre farm where my operations will take place.  That seems to be the biggest piece of at least getting started. 

Last but not least, determine your competition, that will clarify your market.  All the independent tree service guys in my town either have there own mill or have a close friend with a mill.  Alot of times I can get logs that are hard to get too.  The easy or extra nice stuff they want.  But thats okay I got a couple of tracts of timber myself.  Maybe you can get a job with the competition or an older fella looking for someone to pass the business onto.

Last but not least, if you really want to do it, never, never, ever give up.   Just might take a different approach.


Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Brad_S.

I too welcome you to the forum.
I spent (wasted?) 16 years of my life trying to make a go of it in the sawmill business. I made enough to survive but not much more. I too suggest reading Kelvin's posts. I went through much of what Kelvin has, I just wasn't as vocal as Kelvin.
Getting logs from tree surgeons is not as easy as you would think. They are a fickle bunch and don't much care to take the time to deal with sawyers. Often times, the log described to you as "beautiful" turns out to be a small, gnarly weed tree. Additionally, the logs were often full of metal, which ruined blades and made the wood near worthless on species prone to iron stain. I could write all night about wasted time and money dealing with tree companies. Most municpalities don't give wood to any one person as they will get complaints from other residents that they are unfairly favoring you. It is safer for them to grind it than risk lawsuits from digruntled residents.
As for getting your logs, I had a grapple loader on a trailer, but the time it took to hitch up the trailer, run out and grab logs (usually on a moments notice as the tree man doesn't get paid until the mess is cleaned up, so he needs you to move NOW!) and return to your shop would take hours and made the logs unprofitable. A passable trailer, even used, is in excess of $10K, closer to 20. You will need a fair sized truck to pull the log trailer and make deliveries with, another $15+K minimum. You will also need a way to move logs in the yard and to the mill as well as move lumber stacks and slabs, i.e a skid steer or FEL. That requires another $10-20K minimum machine.
A 2-4000 bdft. kiln will run you $8K whether you buy a ready made like Nova or build a chamber for a dehu like a Nyle. You will need a host of tools from chainsaws to peavys to planers. You need a storage area for your kiln dried lumber, ideally one which is climate controled. And yes, you will of course need a sawmill. The old adage that you get what you pay for is especially true with regard to sawmills.
On the selling side, most of the lumber you cut will not be of enough quality to interest cabinet makers, so you need to have markets in place for that lumber. Cabinet makers want a one stop source from whom they can get any quantity of any species they need with just one call, something that is impossible for a small mill. Hobby woodworkers waste too much of your time compared with the small quantity they will buy.
BTW, are you sure the zoning on your MIL's property is compatible with your plans? I had to get a variance for an industrial use since I was located in an agricultural area. How will you dispose of slabs and edgings? How understanding are the in-laws? Even a well run mill generates a mess of sawdust, slabs, logs and lumber that have to be kept somewhere.
I hate to be so negative and it is not my intent to be a dream crusher. If you are planning on this being a hobby business, that's one thing, but if you plan to operate as the bread winner for a family, I urge you to research long and hard before you undertake the plan you have outlined. I wish I had.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Tim/South

I could not afford to saw mill if it were my only source of income and had to start from scratch and make payments.
One of the first things I learned was that we can not compete with the chain stores.
I have been given a lot of free pine trees from local farmers and friends. I use equipment I already owned to harvest the trees. It still takes time, especially when working by yourself.
When a 2x6 was selling for $5.20 I could make a dime with free trees and selling the 2x6 for $4.50 to the locals around here that would rather buy from another local "just because". Now a 2x6 is $3.60 in the store and I can not cut/ haul/ mill even the free logs for that. It is time consuming.
What I have to offer are the lengths and sizes that can not be bought in a store, mostly 20 ft. beams.
I have a client that builds barns. He likes to call and make an order. I will saw and bundle the package and set it on his trailer. I always throw in a few extra boards in case he figured wrong.
I will still go and get the free hardwoods. Those can not be bought in the local store. Anything we can offer that is different or "custom" sets us apart from the chain stores and is a plus.

The big surprise to me has been people wanting me to mill their logs. These are the guys who like to run a chain saw, like to get with a neighbor and load some logs on their gooseneck. I have 20 pine logs and 20 more coming from a guy that just did not want then to go to waste.

In my area it is hard to get hooked up with the tree removal companies. The employees usually sell fire wood on the side and would rather take it home than give it away.
I just bought a boom truck that I hope will give me an inside track on the storm downed hardwood trees. I have developed a bit of a connection in that area that may prove profitable. I can also use the truck on the farm. I would not have bought it for the sole purpose of hauling logs.

I never wanted a saw mill. My father wanted one since he first saw a band saw years ago. My father and I always supported the other in what endeavor we pursued.
Dad is gone and I am trying to give saw milling a chance. I have learned so much that my brain hurts.
Had it not been for this forum I would probably have backed it back under the big barn and covered it with a tarp and pulled it out twice a year when I needed some boards.
It is a tough business out there for the little guy right now.

Let us know what you decide. Stick around. There are some successful members here who have cut their own path and have done well. Figure out who they are and pay attention to what they have to say.

bandmiller2

Mstine,it takes a good day job to support a sawmill.You must find a nitch,sell a specialized product or service yet be able to switch quickly thats your advantage over a big mill.Some endevors its best to ease into,rather than jump with boath feet,your the new guy in the neighborhood feel it out before commiting too much.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

thecfarm

mstine,welcome to the forum.Lots of good advice from someone that has been there.Beware of some of the numbers that might be quoted to you,not on here,but other websites.Yes,so much lumber can be sawed per day,BUT you have to sell it.Does no good to have 20,000 BF when you can't sell it for a good price and make many on it.I see you are moving to Maryland.You will probably be stepping on others toes there.Someone might have the "in" on those logs that you are after.You will be coming from "away" too.That can be frowned on in some areas.I have no idea where your set up will be on your MIL land.If you do go with that,keep out of site of her home.I doubt she would enjoy looking at it or the noise from it.Especially with people coming to see her and telling her,I would not like to hear,see that all the time.What would happen if she passed away?I doubt you could keep sawing there than.You will need gravel on your site so you are not knee deep in mud.A driveway to your sawmill too.You have not said,but have you been around sawmills before this?I have been around cutting wood all my life.If I was going to start a business it would be lawn care and doing yard work and odd jobs.Snow removal in the winter months.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

DanG

Welcome to the Forum Mstine.  You've been pretty thoroughly warned of the pitfalls, and all of what has been said is true.  It is a difficult business to break into.  However, it is not impossible.  From the little you have told of your unique situation, we can only speculate as to how you would pull it off.  A lot depends on getting all the "ifs" to line up in a pretty little row.  IF you're going to move to Maryland anyway, the move isn't part of the equation.  I wouldn't move across the Country just to start a risky business, though.  IF you are able to liquidate assets in Oregon to finance equipment, or have other resources, you might get off to a good start.  If you're planning to borrow money to do it, I'd say you should find a different game.  IF you are needed at your MIL's farm and have a place to live already provided, and IF your Wife has readily marketable skills, and IF you have sufficient mechanical ability to maintain your equipment, and IF you have the sales and procurement skills to successfully aquire logs and sell lumber, and finally, IF you have the stamina and desire to work your fanny into the ground, you just might make a go of it. ;)

Now, if you still want to do this, there is a fine Timberking sawmill listed down in the For Sale section for a bargain price.  You could pick it up in Kentucky on your way to Maryland.  The ability to produce long, large beams could be a good niche to get your foot in the door.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

old joe

Allreally good advice. Mine is similar.  If the move is being driven by choice and you have a good bit of money you can risk, AND you're able to work really hard.just do it.  If the economy is pushing you east for financial survival find another way.  Not saying it can't be done.  Just that if it was easy, everyone would do it.

Joe
THE NEW YANKEE TIL A NEWER ONE ARRIVES THEN I\'LL BE THE OLD YANKEE

gizmodust

Welcome to the Forum mstine.  You ask, you get an answer.  I think you'll find even though you want to do this, you'll need to loose a lot of sleep pondering it.  You may not like the answers you'll get but their honest and from the people who have been/are there.  I'm still there.  Good luck and keep asking questions.
Always liked wood with alot of character

CLL

Biggest thing I found was, it will take 2-3 years to get a good customer base
Too much work-not enough pay.

Brad_S.

I forgot to mention the biggest flaw with this business plan. When relying upon tree services for your logs, you never know what you will get or when you will get a given species. When you do get something, you saw it based on what you think will sell, dry it then sit on it while you go in search of a customer for it. The obvious better way is to have the lumber already sold before you cut the log. No guessing on what will sell. The only way to accomplish that is to order logs from a logger.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

mstine

Wow, all of you are so awesome for your honest and straightfoward responses.  Thank you so very much, I really appreciate it. 

Each of you provided valuable insight for me to ponder and seriously consider.  The idea was actually floated by one of my brothers-in-law, and was seconded by another.  The support is there, the privacy of the location is there; I just need to research the market more thoroughly.  Life and work is great here in Oregon, forestry is always alive and kicking so the move would not be out of necessity.  Just a way to get back close to family, stay at the farm, and reconnect with Maryland again.  I have considered looking into forestry jobs, having listened to the little yellow man in my head saying a lot of the same things you all suggested. 

I send each of you a huge "Thank you", and a heartfelt hand shake.  I will stay on this forum.  I look forward to reading your posts on all topics, as well as possibly adding my own $.02 one day! 

MikeH

Dido to reading Kelvins post.
I got a "free" chainsaw with mine. When the piles of money(or any money) did not come in you see on the brochures, I started doing tree removal out of desperation and love it. It is a good feeling to be paid to bring a sawlog home. ;)

Chico

I don't know what part of Maryland you are headed to but Paper cos used to hold most of the timber ther at least around Queen Annes parish  and I was told this was the case everywhere and from what I gathered The hardwood was hard to get because of the scarcity of good grade logs. I sawed some pine up there and it was supposed to be some of the better and I would have put a lot of it in chip n saw or pulp wood down here in the south I'm not trying to wet on your dream Just listen to these guys that do it for a living and fight it day in day out I don't have to do that ( not yet anyway) and I respect the advice of everyone of them .Just think REAL and don't let the dollar signs blind you because I and anyone here will tell you we don't sawmill or log because of the money We love it and what it takes to do it's something everyone can't or won;t do  Not to say that money can't be a force but it can't be the main force So if you don't think you'll be able to fit this mold You may want to think long and hard jmo Not trying to disillusion you Good luck whatever you decide
Chico
My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

ErikC

  I think for most of us on this forum with small mills, the more successful side of things has been custom sawing, not resale of lumber. But some have made it both ways. I love to run my mill and make a pretty fair wage with it, but do other things as well, and I would rather not do it as a sole line of work. If you can get it lined up this way I think you'll be more satisfied with the results. Face it, it's gonna be part time for the first few years anyway ;), make the most of it.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Meadows Miller

Gday

and Welcome to the forum Mstine  ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) and fell free  to pull up a pack anytime Mate  ;) ;D 8)

With Sawmilling it isnt the easyest game in the world Mate  ;) Dads allways said that there is no money in sawmilling  ;) :D :D the reply he gets from me is that there is no money in Anything these days  ;) hmm there never was  ;) :D :D :D :D ;D ;) 

Dose your mil farm have any timber on it that you could access as this might make a differance to starting up as a steady flow off logs is needed as like the Boys have said already that dealing with tree loppers can be a real Pita at times  ;) atleast if you where sawing steady on a commodity product (Or had a P/T job) and taking the good logs as they come along (or taking everything and cutting what dosent make the grade into firewood  ;) ) and sawing and stocking up on those rare timbers over time
I started off doing Custom work but it was Feast or Phamon all the bloody time as you could make a killing one month and have nthin for the next two the best two week runn i had was $16 k for 4 days contract sawing  then you had to strech it out and make it last you  ;) If i started again i wouldnt try to do things out off my own pocket as i have  ;) i would just do the math on what you need to get going and borrow it from the bank  ;) (its also alot eayser to get it out of them then  ;) than wait thinking ill get that bit off gear lateron  :D then have to jump through hoops lateron sometimes :) ::) ::)  ;) :D ) as i wish i had off done that from the start sometimes  ::) as it would have saved me a hell off alot off dramas as im now trying to get into a steady rythm now doing pine but cashflow can cause some dramas at times but i can see some light at the end off the tunnel Now  ;) Thousands Off tons of FREE Logs  ;) :D ;D ;D 8) 8)
Now that being said  :D Sunday Morning My loader started to Spinn a bigend bearing  :o :) ::) :( and im supose to be up in Marysville to start Salvage work up there on thursday morning  :o ::) but like they say S@#! Happens  ;) :D :D usually at the worst time but the kits arranged and it should be going again in the next 10 days atleast i have access to a Little kobota L2850 loader thats getting the job done and keeping some money coming in  ;) ;D 8) Look out for a Thred Fellas shes an intresting rebuild  ;) :D :D :D

Now To the Nitty Gritty side off things Mate  ;) :D ;D ;)

Marketing You need to Know where a min 80% of you timbers heading for a start before you even saw a log  ;) Luckly Im usualy dont have to worry about this side off things as im usually trying to keep up ( Cashflow  ;) :) ::) :o  )  and i already have a good contact base its just getting into a steady rythm with my pine production  ;)which is starting to get to where i wanted to be 6 months ago   :) :) ::) ::) ;) :D :D
There is nothing worse than sitting around twiddling your thumbs waiting for work to come to You Get out there and Find It as ITS THERE FOR THE TAKING Mate  ;) :D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Logistics !!!! the often underestimated side off Sawmilling have access to atleast two modes of log handeling equipment One for log transport the best way to go with picking up treelopping logs is a crane truck not too big tho  ;) A rigid about a 20' tray so you can back up those driveways and do delivers on it  ;) ;D 8) and a good yard Loader as you cant load logs on the mill  if the trucks away doing somthing else  ;)

An old Bloke said to me once that Sawmilling is a Transport Game   ;) if your not any good at getting them to the mill you wont do well out off milling  ;) and He's Spoton  ;) :D :D

With the Sawmill A good used late model or low hours unit will do a good job for you while your getting started as repairs and downtime will be minimal But like all ( Good  ;) ) equipment Look after it and it will last you a lifetime  Mate ;) ;D  ;D  8) 8) ;D and remember the first owner has allready taken a big hit with depreciation  ;) There will be some great buys out there for the next year or so Mate  ;) ;D 8) 8) 8)

Working capital . I started fulltime with about $600 bucks  and alot off G&D about 2 years ago and some old gear that i owed nothing on  ;) ;D and guess what i still have it all And i have also gained some new Toys EHHMM TOOLS  ;) :D :D ;) over that time mate  ;) :D :D :D ;D ;D 8) 8)
If you are browing money to StartUp go about 20 % above what you are borowing on equipment this should give you enough to build up a good head off steam Mate  ;) and remember that out of every 100 buisness that startup only 5 make it to their 5 th birthday  ;)
You have to be willing to put Your ALL Into This if you want to make it fulltime in this game  ;) otherwise start off parttime and Ease into it over afew years 

Credit DONT GIVE IT unless you know the preson realy well  ;) in these economic times as you dont realyknow what their finacial situation is  ;) I only give it to buisness that ive or my family have  delt with before and that have been around atleast 25 years even then the limmit is $3k otherwise its COD no exceptions from now on as the last time i got stung was only october last year and that took till feb to come in and that stuffed me up for awhile   ;) :o :) :( >:( ::) ::)

Anyway welcome to the forum and Welcome to the WONDERFULL WORLD off  Sawmilling   ;) :D ;D 8) But remember Once that bug bites you its a Lifelong Recovery  Program   ;) Thank God i still have a long time left on it i Hope  ;) :D :D ;D 8) 8)

Good Luck Mate whichever way you decide to go Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Reguards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

Shamus

Lots of good advice here, you've sure come to the right place. It can definitely be an uphill journey getting yourself established with a small milling business, especially in this economy. If you are going to be doing it for a living, you need a really good efficient setup (so you're not wasting time), and more equipment than you think. And having your own supply of logs can be crucial, to get you through the slow patches if and when you have no access to other people's logs. So yeah, looking at it as a part time occupation as you get started is probably a good idea, or else look into other products that you might be able to produce (that there is demand for in your area). If I wasn't selling firewood and cedar rails as well as milling I wouldn't have lasted through these first lean years.

Having said that, it can be done if you have the tenacity, luck and determination to succeed. Plus, it is an extremely satisying, addictive, and even fun way to (try to) make a living. Probably won't get rich doing it, will have to work your butt off doing it, but there's something about working outside and being your own boss that makes it all worth it.

Good luck with it all, whatever your decision...
D&L Doublecut Synchro sawmill, Procut chainsaw mill, John Deere crawler loader,  F350 4x4 flatdeck, 20 ton logsplitter, running Stihls

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