iDRY Vacuum Kilns

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Kiln controls recommendation

Started by solidwoods, August 18, 2003, 06:22:20 AM

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solidwoods

I am building a 5000bf kiln.  Anyone have a  suggestion for simple kiln controls (water boiler heat) or a DIY system?
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Den Socling

how simple do you want to get? Two process "loop" controllers are about the minimum for good control. But you need (or will want) fuses, switches, maybe solenoid valves, valve actuators (pneumatic or electrical) and indicators.

Frank_Pender

SW, I went very simple.  I got a Taylor Hotwater furnace and place a heat exchanger in a semi-trailer.  I palced an Ebac 800 in there to remove moisture very slowly.  It works great. 8)
Good luck with your project.
Frank Pender

smwwoody

Jerry Lewis from Timber Wolf Dry Kilns markets a simple controller for a hot water kiln I will find his phone number for you
Full time Mill Manager
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Mark M

Frank, how big of a heat exchanger are you using? do you have any pictures or diagrams?

Mark

Den Socling

You could use a single relay output to start/stop a boiler circulating pump from a water temperature input. A second relay output could open/close vents with a wetbulb input.

I prefer to set a three-way modulating valve to send some hot water to the kiln, as needed and the balance back to the boiler.

5000BFt can be worth enough that you shouldn't risk ruining it by trying to control with junk.

Jason_WI

Do you want to risk 5000 bf with a cheap controller? Maybe 500 bf but you are takling some serious risk.

With the cost of one ruined load you could purchase a pretty decent controller.

Proportional control is $$$$$

A on/off controller is cheaper but you will want a dead band to prevent oscillation.

Check Watlow and Omron for process controllers.

Then again there ways to build your own controller.....


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

oakiemac

I agree that proportional control is generally better, but an on/off controller (just a temperature switch with adjustable deadband and setpoint) would work for this application. I bet you could get everything you need a heating/airconditioning shop. The real question is what are you using for a heat source? Hot water? Electric heat? Steam? Once this is determined then you can set up a control plan. If you need help, let me know I have 15 years process instrumentation experience.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Den Socling

Jason,

I can put in a voltage or current output for $33 more than a relay. We don't even add that cost when somebody wants proportional control. Three wire, mod valves can run from less than $100 to hundreds depending on size and MTBF. It's not big bucks compared to the value of a kiln charge.

And, as I've told you at another forum, it isn't worth the hassle to try to build your own. The learning process would kill some small guys. Go to somebody with lots of experience. And don't buy cheap crap from somebody that claims cheap control. I don't want to advertise here but, I guarantee you that you can't buy decent control with less money than ... well, go to members and look at my webpage.

Den

BBTom

Solidwoods,

I don't have anything to sell, I just have a small hot water kiln that works.  Control is within 1 degree dry bulb, and 1 percent humidity.  No it doesn't have a chart recorder, Yes I did have to implement some small power relays.  I have under $350 in my controller,  including valves and relays.  I realize that I have $10,000 worth of lumber in my kiln at times, but see no reason to let someone scare me into spending more money than necessary.  The unit I am using is purchased from Kiln-direct.com, and cost $240.  BTW the manufacturer of this unit is Pola, They have been building climatic controllers for over 25 years.

Now don't get me wrong, If you feel you need to spend 2500 to 5000 for your kiln controller, then you will probably get a real good turnkey package that will do a fantastic job.  I spent a few years of my life in process control, so it isn't scary for me like it is for many.  
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Den Socling

BB Tom,

Somebody gave you an effective snowjob. You don't have 1 degree on drybulb or 1% on RH. If it looks that way, you are seeing process rounded averages. Unless you have one extraordinary kiln.

Den

Jeff

Hi Guys, just wanted to stop by and see whatcha all are talking about. Hmmm interesting.  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Den Socling


Den Socling

Let me add this. Our minimum order is $10,000.00 (LOL) and still I'll sell to you only if I like you!  :D  But then, if you want some good advice, that's free. But not for a day or two. I'm tired and will be out of town tomorrow.

biziedizie

  Den I've been reading what you say here and on other forums and your answers are always consistant.
  I as a person that really has no ideas about kilns would be looking your way when it comes down to the crunch of building a kiln.
  I've read up about vaccum kilns and I agree with everything that you say about them even though I have alot to learn about things.
  You have a way of explaining things and I hope you go far with your honesty. :)
  If you ever need a dealer out my way let me know as I would be interested.

   Steve

BBTom

Den,

I know that you have a great deal of expertise in kilns and controllers.  Your controllers are well know and respected by many in the industry. I, in no way mean to cast any dispersions at you or your products. I apologize and retract anything I said that sounded that way.
I do feel that some of the gentlemen asking about small kiln controllers cannot afford to spend more than 5000 for their entire kiln.  Again, I say these are small kilns, 1000-5000 BDFT.  They do not have the capital for major investment, just want to dry some lumber, and are looking for control that they can afford.  Rather than sending them packing because they cannot afford top of the line controls,  I believe they should be enlightened as to what low cost options are available. I also know that when it comes to the top of the line kiln controllers, that yours are more affordable than most, unfortunately these guys cannot afford them.

Tom
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Den Socling

Thanks Tom. no offense taken.

We try very,very hard to make good controllers affordable for everyone. And the same goes for vac kilns. It's hard to make "good" and "cheap".

Had a lot more written but deleted it. Sounded like a sales pitch.

Point is this, I'm here to help if I know an answer.

Larry

Here's simple.



Out of FWW "Wood and How to Dry It" a collection of short articles available from Taunton press.  There is a short article on how to build a kiln using steam, hot water, or electric.  The schematic is for electric heat but the author describes how to change it for steam or hot water.  The article is old but does have a lot of ideas.  The author was a kiln operator and later a well respected Professor at the University of Massachusetts.  Don't see why it wouldn't work with a conservative schedule and a regular check of the sample boards but I have never tried it.

Mark,
University of Massachusetts also did some research on hybrid solar kilns.  Never have been able to track down the final result but that might be someplace to make some inquires.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Den Socling

Larry,

The box in the block diagram that is labeled "remote bulb thermostat" is actually the kiln controller. Now days, you don't use bulbs but RTD's (a few guys still use thermocouples) and you can get really cheap with a thermister. So, that's the input to an electronic device. The question is, do you want to use two $300 loop controllers with keypad, display and control algorithm built in, or, do you do want to go really cheap with a PLC that needs enclosed, a power supply, a display, probably RTD "adapters" and programmed.

I'm going to gather information for people who want to go the mini-PLC route. There's a bunch of different brands. We will check them out, buy one and see what's involved in making a minimal kiln controller.

Den

Larry

Den,
That sounds like a great idea to me.  I don't have a good understanding of conventional kilns and sure don't want to spend a bunch of time and money making something that may or may not work.  If you could come up with a package controller with kiln chamber plans in the neighborhood of 3 to 5 mbf there might be a market.

I run an Ebac LD800 and solar kiln right now.  Looking to buy a Nyle L200 this winter or next spring. An alternative would be nice to look at.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

woodhaven

Den,
I have a moisture meter that uses pins to insert into the wood. If I were to build a digital system using thermisters how would I insert them into the wood for a reading? Drill a little hole and slid it in or what.
Richard

Den Socling

Richard,

When I'm experimenting with really thick stock, I sometimes put RTD's in the core and the shell. Just drill oversize or the wood will shrink and you will have a heck of a time getting them out.

I do this with vac kilns to study heat transfer. In a conventional kiln, the temperature of the wood is less important because you need to be concerned mostly with the conditions on the surface of the wood. But knowing wood temperature could have some value even in a conventional or DH kiln. As long as water is evaporating rapidly, there is an obvious cooling effect. When the wood is nearly dry, it's temperature rises rapidly.

Den

Frank_Pender

Mark, I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back here.   I have been extremely busy trying to pretty the place up for a class I am involved with sawing a drying through Oregon State University, on Sept. 4.  

     The heat exchanger is a unit that is approcimately 32" square and has a 24" fan helping to circulate the air.  I use an additional 5 24" box type fans to keep the air moving in a 24' refer trailer.  Part of my initial theory was to generate the moisture in the air, inside the trailer, and have a dehumidifier that could not remove it as fast as the moisture was being extracted from the lumber.  It works very well.  the hot steam helps then in the drying process, just like the big boys toys.  I DO NOT release or as the pros say, exhaust the steam at any time what so ever.   I will open the kil only 4 times in a 30 day run.  That is for the purpose of testing the moisture content of the specific boards at each test.   I use a Delhorst pin meter.  It works great.
Frank Pender

solidwoods

This is an interesting subject, I asked about it at woodweb 5ish years ago and ideas and info flew prety well .  We could have a whole round table discussion about what business model uses boilers (non pressure), up to 10000bf kiln, and less than 10 souls to earn an income,  but the real point is can a simple prorortional or non proportional system be put togather with off the shelf components (no data recording)?  Simple digital control (or manual control if just as accurate) ,quality sensors, relays, venting sys, fans etc.  Really if you put fusing, sensors, relays, venting apparatus, and fans separate , all that's left is the controller (quality schematic design/materials yes).  Controller reliability is what will make the difference.  How long will it work with proper use? A sensor can fail any time it feels like it.
I'm using a Taylor 165000btu boiler.
Any suggestions for the wetbulb system components, sensors, solinoid-valves?
A simple controller like Kiln Direct sell should be fine for me.
I wouldnt mind making the controller, but without a parts list and some spoon feeding it would be cheaper/less labor to buy a simple pre-made controller.
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

woodhaven

Den,
I will try to make this short because this question could take several pages. From my point of view a moisture meter is nothing more than a megohm meter. To get humidify you measure dry and wet bulb. Ok what I want to do is build a moisture meter into my digital controls. Like you I don't won't to sound like a sales person so I won't say the name of hardware I use but I have no limitations.
  Tring to decide how to do this is kicking my But.
Richard

Den Socling

WoodHaven,
Do a Googlesearch for PC Specialties forum and you will find a forum for vacuum kiln and conventional kiln control (requires free registration). Read the thread about measuring RH in a vacuum and you will see that a discussion can get long, detailed and boring as heck to somebody who isn't into "it".

You can make a resistance digital. As you no doubt know, that's how you read temperature. Start your topic and we'll see if a discussion will follow.

Den


Everybody keeps mentioning kiln-direct and their simple, low cost kiln controllers so I finally checked them out. Look at this one. WSUS-WIS-0404 This is not a kiln controller. It's maybe a dual-loop controller or a PLC.  

Look at this this one. WSUS-WIS-1616 This one is not a kiln controller. It's a PLC in an enclosure.  But really got me was the fact that the PLC in a box was more than $500 higher than our controller!  ??? So we spent some time at our website raising prices.  ;D This is an unavoidable sales pitch but, those who don't know what a kiln control system should look like need to see this page. http://www.pcspecialties.com/ek1160-2x.html

Frank_Pender

Wet bulb, dry buld.  :P The only bulb I have in my kiln is the one I might have to use during the "deepest darkest evening of the year" inside the kiln trailer.  :D I have been drying now, for  going on five years with much success. 8)  I use a simple pin moisture meter on preselectd boards, four times in the cycle.  I have no exhausting system etc. ;D  I do use a temp gage that reads up to 400 degrees, if need be. :-/  I only go to 165 the last 3 or 4 days of the drying cycle.  D grade is very limited, due only to my own carelessness or trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Techical, I am not.  Practical, I am.  MY system works for me and the woods I dry here on the West Coast.  Perhaps that is part of the success issues.  If I were to have to dry some of species of woods that are outside my area ther could well be some differing results, until I learned the behavior of a specific species.  

In fact, I am hosting part of an Extension class on sawing and drying in early Sept..  Do I have all of the answers? No.  But, what I am experiencing is success with the methods I am using.  If someone comes along and asks/tells me to try or do something different, I would most likely do so, if their reasoning is "concrete sequential" in approach.   I could well have a different profile on my learning curve.  :o  In the new approach, I would be using their lumber, of course. :D
Frank Pender

woodhaven

Frank,
When driving in my truck I usually can tell if i'm running around 55 m.p.h. but it sure is nice to have a speedometer just to make sure.
Richard

Jason_WI

You guys are tempting me to post schematics and code for my Poorman's temperature and RH meter/datalogger.....

With a little tweaking (buy me beer to finish code) it can be a controller.........

Can you guys solder??  I mean beaing able to solder thruhole parts onto a Vero or Vector pad per hole and do point to point wiring? A big difference than sweating pipes. Also different solder!

Jason

Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

woodhaven

Jason,
I am a digital control builder and programmer and would be very interested to see what you have so post away.
Richard

Den Socling

Frank,

Suppose the stuff is worth $5 a boardfoot (heavy red oak) or $40 a boardfoot (curly koa) and a step outside the lines cracked it, warped it and left wet pockets sealed in a dry shell so tight that you could never get them out. Would you see a need for tight control? What species and thickness are you drying? I know that you have mentioned them before but I can't remember.

Jason,

Soldering a thruhole is easy. It takes a technician to desolder!

Den

Jason_WI

This post reminded me about the digital tach I was supposed to post schematics and code for a few months back. Too many DanG irons in the fire......

I'll hafta use my ISP cause those itty bitty pic's that can only be posted here will leave ya squinting and wondering.

I'll hafta come up with some "It ain't my fault if you use these circuits for any function or purpose" or  jargon for those lawyer types.

How about soldering surface mount components??? I solder these all day long so they are a breeze for me. I usually etch my own curcuit boards and I prefer surface mount parts on single sided boards so no holes have to be drilled.


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Frank_Pender

Den and others, I dry the following species, (some more than others) Oregon White Oak, Black Walnut, Western Big Leaf Maple, Madrona, Cottonwood, Western Ash, burls from our Oak, Maple, Madrona, Western White and Red Alder, Western Wild Cherry (yum), Pin Oak, and of course the occasions off species like, "Monkey Fir" and various species of fruit woods.  I hope I have not left a species out. I would hate to have to hurt the feelings of a species.

  Jason, you hve a point.  That is why for some species my learning curve has been one of being vertical rather than that of a gradual climb.  Yep, I have ruined some boards due to lack of knowledge/experience.  However, I have been known to be a fast learner when one put a $ in front of an issue or on a board. :D  The majority of the woods fall intoer the catgory of being 1" or 5/4" material.  I have dried quite a bit of 6, 8, 16/4 material with rather good results.  I did 5,000 bdft of 6/4 Maple last year in 3 successive runs with great success.  The customer was estatic about the results.   8)   And, at $.50 a bdft for drying, so was my banker and my pocket. ;D
Frank Pender

Oregon_Rob

As a know-very little, someday want-a-be in the high tech industry :P it sure seems that there should be a was to use an old computer, something like a 386-486 to monitor and control a kiln. Doesn't someone make a set up to do this? You could have pre-programmed cycles for different loads?
Chainsaw Nerd

Den Socling

Oregon-Rob,

A computer doesn't have the type of outputs that move actuators. Actuators are the devices that open/close the heat valve, spray valve and vents. There's interface devices available. A loop controller is an example.

This thread has got me on still another product development. I have a factory rep coming on Thursday with some low cost PLC's and loop controllers that will plug into a PC. With this set-up, the control system can stand alone or take instructions from the computer. And, since you can call a computer with a phone, you can check or adjust your kiln from anywhere.

Den

woodhaven

Hey Den,
Don't mean to mess with your thoughts but that is 10 year old technology. Let me splain. I am in the HVAC-R industry and have been doing that with buildings for years. If you have a laptop and a cellular phone I can build  you a system so you could be in a airplane over China and dial into your klin ckeck and control any device inside I could even allow you to place a camera inside to see whatever you want. This type of control system has no limits that I have found. My wife never knows what will happen around here bscause I have so much stuff controlled off the computer. My hardware is in no way geared to klins its just that I can take any AI-AO-DO-DI and make it do whatever I want it doesn't matter what its connected to. I enjoy this kind of stuff.
 
Lets say I have a building owner on the west coast that wants to open a window in his building on the east coast. No problem just dial up your building (with real time graphics) and watch the window open.

Cost wise the PLC's I use cost me about $500.00 with 8-inputs and 8 outputs. I can also have your controlled area come up as a web page on the internet with the same control options just give a IP address.
Richard

Den Socling

Richard,

We have been using remote access for a long time. And we often use the internet so that we can monitor new installations without the phone call. What's new is equipment that comes with it's own MMI software. Have you ever paid for a WonderWare license?  >:( Big bucks for a bunch of graphics and eye candy that we don't need. Then, there is software from outfits like AutoMation Direct. Affordable for the small guy but DanG crude compared to WonderWare.

Den

Jason_WI

O_R,

Do you really want your kiln controlled with billy gates crashware?? A dedicated microcontroller that can recover from a power outage all on its own and doesn't have IRQ conflicts with a sound card or blue screens of death.

A PC can caprure data and log it real time but I wouldn't use it for control.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Den Socling

Jason

You're right on the money with that!

Den

woodhaven

Jason,
The PLC's I use are completely stand alone and don't need a computer but I like to use the computer on a system because of all the show off stuff I can do. That way if brother Bill goes into a brain poot it doesn't matter cause everything is always stored in the PLC as well. You could unplug the computer and plug it back in and the system would never know it.
Richard

Den Socling

Richard,

We do it same as you - stand alone with computer access. Jason was talking about putting kiln control in the hands of a PC. Bad idea!

Den

woodhaven

I agree completely. Computers are a lot like women they can do some strange things, 8) 8)
Richard

Jason_WI

Ok, so now we agee that Gates isn't allowed to control anything. ;D

What about cost?

PLC's that I have worked with are the AB SLC500? series. This was a while ago and they were $$$$$$$. The ladder logic programming sux in my opinion, especially with a hand held terminal.

So your PLC costs around $500 with 8 analog inputs and 8 digital outputs. What about analog output? How about PWM control?

Now you need sensors, right. You will probably have to go with a 4-20mA preconditioned humidity sensor as well as a temp sensor. These will set you back $250 ea, more than likely.

So total cost is around $1000 so far. Cheap for some, too expensive for others.

I would say the total cost should be no more than $300 for a small kiln up to 5000 mbf. Call me cheap but I know it can be done for that or less.

My kiln controller would be 8 bit microcontroller based. I would probably use a PIC16F877 from Microchip. It has 8 analog inputs at 10 bit resolution, 2 PWM modules, USART, plenty of digital IO, 8k program flash, 368 bytes of RAM, and 256 bytes of EEPROM. All this for 8 bux, yep ya heard me right that's $8.

Humidity sensor would be a HIH-3610 from Honeywell, These cost $40 each with NIST cal data. I would integrate a temp sensor with each humidity module. I would use a DS18B20 one wire digital temperature sensor at $5 each.

LCD screen to display current conditions/setpionts is about $20.

Nema enclosure to house all this stuff, guessing $50 for a good one.

I would use Selmaware S-Plot Pro for $50 to plot real time conditions on a PC. Could also use this to send the micro new setpoint values. It also has the ability to control stuff over a network while flying over China at 40000 ft ;D ;D

So lets see that's ~$175. Add a few more bux for opto isolation on the digital IO, relays, 5 volt power supply, hardware, and PCB.

So $250 total should get you a decent kiln controller for the small weekend warrior.
 
The PIC can be programmed in basic with PIC Basic Pro. Basic is easy to understand and things like a LCD can be controlled with 2 lines of code.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

woodhaven

Ok,
Where is your alarm signal to notify you in the plane over China when you have a failure of any instance of any type at any time during the drying cycle. And the ability to validate the alarm without opening the klin. All this and some things you mentioned earlier I do within the programming. I control  all electrical values in
the programming.

Hey we need to start a digital control forum.
Richard

Den Socling

OK Jason. Suppose I could build the system for $250. Do you think I'm going to sell it for $250? I have to be able to afford gas for my truck, you know! DanG few would want to do it on their own. The learning process ... ???

Jason_WI

How about a Forest Industry Electronics forum ;D.

Alarms, sure it can have alarms. How much redundancy is required for an application such as a kiln? Dual temp sensors? A seperate monitoring system if something would go wrong would cut power to the system?? Sure the more stuff you add the more it will cost.

How much redundancy do you have in your house? Do you never leave your house in the winter for fear of your pipes freezing up and busting cause your furnace puked or your thermostat took a dump?

Den,

I will sell you my design and buy a small island somewhere. You can charge as much as you want for it then  ;D ;D ;D


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Jason_WI

O.K.

So who's up for an electronic's lesson?? :P

Basic temperature and humidity monitoring??

Add in control and other functionality later??

Gotta start somewhere...... ;)

I am willing to post code and schematics.

 I can post them on my ISP as to not bog down the FF server.


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

woodhaven

Allrighty,
2 basic questions.

How hot can you get water in degees?
and
What temperature is cold?
Richard

Den Socling

The low cost controller went nowhere at PCS today. A kiln manufacturer in the northwest wanted 6 controllers for 2-zone kilns with three line recorders (total nearly $33,000) and a kiln manufacturer in the southeast wanted 5 controllers that could automatically calculate MC from in kiln scales.  ??? We still have the meeting scheduled tomorrow with the factory rep that throws in MMI with the hardware (which is cheap).

Jason_WI

What does this have to do with electronics? ???

Is that degrees F, C, or K??

Hmm, What temp is cold......Hmm, my beer is ice cold right now................. well that one was....

Kssssst...........yep, that one is cold also ;D

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Jason_WI

Den,

Do you use load cells to determine the weight of the stack then caclulate MC loss based on weight delta???

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

woodhaven

Maybe nothing, maybe everything either way you answered my question.
Richard

Den Socling

Jason,

That's the idea and they can't get the idea that I don't want to do it. Calculating the change in MC for multiple samples in multiple kilns for multilpe days with MMI is a pain in the butt (am I allowed to say that?)  ::) Just use a spread sheet!! That's easy! If you plug the number into MMI automatically and give the MMI kiln control,you don't need a kiln operator (except for part time). I don't like that. Use the spread sheet, let the operator make the decision and then, if he wants to change settings from the computer with the spreadsheet, let him do it that way.

Den

PS and I hate the sales tactics that the "big" guys are using with all the fancy graphics. I was looking at one of the biggest today and that jerk company claimed that they were reading the weight of the sample boards 50 times per second. LIARS.  >:(  Even if they were, why would you devote so much processor time to such a totally useless task?  ??? jerks
If you can't tell, I'm hot and tired. Time for some cold beer. 8) 8) 8)

Jason_WI

There is no need to take 50 samples a second for that. Heck a sample every minute is probably too fast, drying is a slow process. Now if you want to average a number of samples then take 10 or 50 if needed and calculate an average.

That company that want's the load cells probably is looking to streamline there operation. Fire all the kiln operators and use a profile based on species and MC loss per day. Ronco "set it and forget it" style controls except it isn't a $10 turkey that there cooking its probably 50 mbf of 2" red oak......


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Xylophile

Jason!!

Count me in for the electronics lesson!  I'll be your Lab Rat!   I haven't had any beer, but there were a couple gins and tonic after work...

I am very interested in the basic temperature and RH monitoring for a kiln!  I studied, with interest, your post of Aug 25 detailing the hardware and software needed for a controller for T and RH.  I have gained (tried to gain?!) a little knowledge concerning the items in your above post.  Unfortunately, electronics is not my field , and it is a struggle.  Mostly Greek to me.  I need a controller, and am willing to do the legwork and buy the hardware and software required.

Let the games begin!

Joe

PS  I am willing to switch to cold beer tomorrow!  Hell, you get this working, and I'll buy the beer!

Den Socling

Jason,
The company that wants the automated computer kiln control is competing against the biggest companies - USNR (Irv-Moore) type. They don't have automated schedule control and they think they need it to compete.

Joe,
Unless you are a Jason, forget about building your own controller unless it's just a hobby and you don't care how much time and money you waste in the learning process. If it's a hobby and you are willing to pay for an education, then follow Jason's advice.

Den

Den Socling

I just reread Jason's post from 8/25. There is a whole lot missing to make this a kiln controller that you can trust. A $100,000 kiln charge might be a risk to some. A $1000 kiln charge might be a risk to others. And for those who don't know how to build, buffer and program those building blocks that he mentions, you could be in for one frustrating and expensive learning process.
C'mon Jason! It's not that easy and you know it.

Jason_WI

Den

You of little faith.........

They teach microcontrollers in some high school electronics classes.

I already have half of the schematic captured for the temp and RH monitor.

I have used these microcontrollers for testing components of medical products where I work. One test ran for 2 months straight cycling vac pumps on and off. The micro controlled the solid state relay, verified that the pump actually turned on and off by monitoring a LEM current sensor module, performed all of the timing, measured the ambient temp, and sent all of the data out the serial port to be logged to a PC. It also displayed all current conditions on a 2X24 LCD all this without locking up.....

Y'all need to read this doc if you want to learn industrial control with microcontrollers:

http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/books/edu/ic.pdf

The pdf is 266 pages and starts you with process flow and ends with PID control.

This is for the Parallax Basic Stamp, but it is very similuar to Pic Basic Pro from MELabs.

If your asking yourself "what the heck is a microcontroller" then you need to read this FIRST:

http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/prod/sic/WAM.pdf

This goes through the basics.

The whole student curriculum is located here:

http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/edu/curriculum/sic_curriculum.asp

I am going to post the code and schematics. If there is enough interest then I'll layout a PCB and etch a few boards. Etching boards is another post I can cover if needed.

If your really interested in microcontrollers then I recommend that you take advantage of this special at Parallax. It is their homework board that is on sale for 80 bux.

http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=90000

It IS possible on your own or just build what I come up with and it WILL work.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

biziedizie

   Hey Den when I sub-contract jobs like low-voltage stuff and net working stuff and things that I don't have a clue about I never go with the guy that's the cheapest. I try to go with the guy that's the middle of the road and he must have been around the block a few times, ie experience is a big thing with me.
  I run into customers all the time that think they know it all but when it comes down to it they just know the basics and have nooooo idea how to fine tune their knowledge that they learned from reading a magazine.
  Jason please don't get offended by what I just wrote as I'm just on the sideline watching this thread. You do bring up some valid points but Den has been doing this for awhile and me thinks I would spend the extra buxs having a professional build a component for me that I could trust to work.
  If the part breaks down in the middle of the night where is the weekend warrior???
  I know where the pro would be and how to get hold of him/her.
  Sometimes it really pays to spend the buxs on having a company that's been around to build things for you.


    Steve

DanG

This thread is just getting gooder and gooder. :)

I only have one thing to add.  I work, on a daily basis, with circuitry that carries up to 32,256 interactions simultaneously, either conversations, or data connections. Sprint is not about to risk that kind of volume (or revenue) to shaky engineering. These things absolutely must function 24/7/365.25!  Our ultimate back-up is a 22 ga. wire with a ground on it, leading to a bell and a light bulb. SIMPLICITY is foolproof for even the most accomplished fool. Now, that being said, our smaller circuits, those carrying 24 or less interactions, have less safeguards, IE, no backup. I know how easily these can fail, and how often. I'd sooner leave the family dog in charge of the kiln.  I've been to Den's website and seen the redundancies built into his systems. I'm impressed. If you've got $ to spend, put it into dependability, not fancy.
Dat's all I gots to say about dat. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Jason_WI

Biz,

Rember that this is for the guy that wants a small kiln, has the materials for the kiln and plans for the kiln but then has to sink a few grand for a controller. It doesn't add up. I'm just here to show them how it may be done for less.

If parts are what your worried about then Digikey and Mouser have all the parts you will ever need. Newark and MSC have the contactors, relays, switches, and fuses that are required to make this work. Sure I could source surplus stuff and that is fine, till it's gone....  but I'm not in this case.

I agree, this may not be for everyone but for those willing to give it a shot and want to learn something this it who it's for.


Jason



Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Xylophile

OK Jason!

I'm still in.  Gonna order the Homework Board Summer Special from Parallax tomorrow.  I'm printing out the manual for the same now.  Nite-Nite!

Joe

solidwoods

Being a small operation, I would be willing to work samples. A controller with continual sampling for program updateing is nice, and  schedule programmability is great, but weighing samples and manually setting the system down a schedule should be just fine for a small operation.  Yes a price would be paid in efficiency and time but in time an operation could purchase a programable type for more money.
If I had a choice, I would have no problem purchasing a plan for a programable system, but no one offers it.  So rather than scratch building/learning one I would think the simplest concept would get lumber drying to start the $ moving with lower risk.
And using a dedicated PC (if a more complex control is made) should be just fine.  

JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Den Socling

Jason,

Have you ever worked with Wonderware Factorysuite? It does great stuff but the license cost around $1800 to $20,000 depending on how many devices you want to access. AutomationDirect has a crude look-a-like for less money. Same with Watlow and others. Since our meeting with the factory rep this afternoon, we will have equivalent software for certain brands of loop controllers and PLC's available for ... maybe 3 cents on the dollar compared to Wonderware.
Your effort to build a controller for a couple hundred is good for anybody who is interested in learning but controller pricing with computer access is about to go through the floor.
And guess what, Wonderware, I will be glad to be part of bringing you down!
PS They had a controller with thermister or thermocouple input and relay output for $50. Guess I could build a controller for $300.

Den

PS That's a joke, son! I could but I wouldn't. It wouldn't be easy to use or easy to trust. Where have I read that before?  ::)

Jason_WI

Usually I don't encounter this much resistance when I offer free hardware and the code to make it all happen.  I guess electronics is an enigma for some and decide to leave it to the pros or the EE's.

I was asked to look at a circuit board that was failing testing in manufactoring where I work. I suspected that it was a micro BGA that was not operating properly.
Supertex, who makes high voltage analog mux parts, said " we have know way to test the parts you think that are failing. They are micro BGA parts and we don't have a fixture to connect them.

I suppose any normal person whould have bought that. Not me.

I soldered 50 gauge magnet wire that I unwound from a low voltage relay coil to each of the connections on the micro BGA and was able to test the parts in question with a Basic Stamp and a high voltage power supply. Supertex did not belive what I did so I took a picture and sent it to them. They were impressed to say the least.

Here is a pic:




Here's the code:
'{$STAMP BS2p}
'This program toggles the outputs on a HV232 from Supertex Inc.
'Using a Basic Stamp to shift out data to control the mux
'
'Programmer: Jason Birnschein
'
'
'-----------------Define LCD constants-------------------------------

WakeUp CON %00110000 'Wake-up
FourBitMode CON %00100000 'Set to 4-bit mode
OneLine5x8Font CON %00100000 'Set to 1 display line, 5x8 font
OneLine5x10Font CON %00100100 'Set to 1 display line, 5x10 font
TwoLine5x8Font CON %00101000 'Set to 2 display lines, 5x8 font
TwoLine5x10Font CON %00101100 'Set to 2 display lines, 5x10 font
DisplayOff CON %00001000 'Turn off display, data is retained
DisplayOn CON %00001100 'Turn on display, no cursor
DisplayOnULCrsr CON %00001110 'Turn on display, with underline cursor
DisplayOnBLCrsr CON %00001101 'Turn on display, with blinking cursor
IncCrsr CON %00000110 'Auto-increment cursor, no display shift
IncCrsrShift CON %00000111 'Auto-increment cursor, shift display left
DecCrsr CON %00000100 'Auto-decrement cursor, no display shift
DecCrsrShift CON %00000101 'Auto-decrement cursor, shift display right
ClearDisplay CON %00000001 'Clear the display
HomeDisplay CON %00000010 'Move cursor and display to home position
ScrollLeft CON %00011000 'Scroll display to the left
ScrollRight CON %00011100 'Scroll display to the right
CrsrLeft CON %00010000 'Move cursor left
CrsrRight CON %00010100 'Move cursor right
MoveCrsr CON %10000000 'Move cursor to position (must add address)
MoveToCGRAM CON %01000000 'Move to CGRAM position (must add address)

'----------------HV232 Constants-----------------------------------------
LE       con       8
CLR       con       9
CLK       con       10
Dout       con       11
'--------------Initialize HV232------------------------------------------
low       CLR
pause 5
low       LE
pause 5

'----------------Splash Screen-------------------------------------------
Init:

GOSUB InitLCD
LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay
pause 200
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["     Supertex HV232"]
LCDOUT 1, MoveCrsr+64, ["     Test Program"]
pause 3000
LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay

'----------------Main Program--------------------------------------------
Main:

shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[001]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 0 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[002]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 1 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[004]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 2 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[008]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 3 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[016]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 4 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[032]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 5 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[064]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 6 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[128]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   SW 7 is ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[255]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   All Switches ON"]
Pause 1000
shiftout Dout, CLK, msbfirst,[000]
lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["   All Switches OFF"]
Pause 1000
LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay
pause 100

goto main


'--------------------------LCD Subroutines--------------------------------
InitLCD:
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp 'Send wakeup sequence to LCD
PAUSE 10 'These pauses are necessary to meet the LCD specs
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp
PAUSE 1
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp
PAUSE 1
LCDCMD 1, FourBitMode 'Set buss to 4-bit mode
LCDCMD 1, TwoLine5x8Font 'Set to 2-line mode with 5x8 font
LCDCMD 1, DisplayOff 'Turn display off
LCDCMD 1, DisplayOn 'Turn display on with blinking cursor
LCDCMD 1, IncCrsr 'Set to auto-increment cursor (no display shift)
LCDCMD 1, ClearDisplay 'Clear the display
RETURN


Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Den Socling

Jason,

It's impressive to people who know what you are talking about but it's Greek (or maybe Martian  ;D ) to most of us.

Den

PS I was working with multiplexors and de-multiplexors before you were born. But then, we were working with miles of 30AWG wirewrap.

Jason_WI

Den,

It's not greek, its BASIC.

Now you made me hungry for a gyro...... ;D

Jason

Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Den Socling

BASIC to me was:

10 IF X=1 and Y=1 THEN Z=1
20 IF X=1 and Y=0 THEN Z=0
30 IF X=0 and Y=1 THEN Z=0
40 IF X=0 and Y=0 THEN GOTO 100
100 just buy a DanG loop controller and leave the programming to geeks who seem to like the hassle  :D

kinda like petraglyphs, huh?
I can't even remember any basic BASIC any more.

woodhaven

Jason,
I noticed your commands are in line. Can you come back and insert another command in the sequence easy? I always leave 10 points between commands for expansion. I wish you guys had a copy of my software so you could dial into my system just to look at my stuff. But because of manuf. constraints that can't happen.
This may sound weird to you but it works this way.
When I install the software it automaticlly inserts menus in autocad. Then all my programming is done in autocad. When done it writes 2 files.One of which I send to the PLC the other is a complete drawing of the system just built. This saves me a lot of time because I have to submit a drawing with my program. The program compiler is in autocad.

Now I really have problems my plotter power supply went south yesterday. I have it out now trying to trouble shoot. I am not having much fun at the moment.
Richard

Den Socling

Woodhaven,

Do you have a local shop for drafting supplies, blueprints and such? Around here, everyone without a plotter emails their autoCAD to our local shop where we stop by and pick up copies.

Den

woodhaven

No not really close. Thats why I have my own.
Richard

Fla._Deadheader

   Hunhhh  A while back, Jeff got after Me for posting in Spanish, and, here you guys are, posting in ?????????      ;D ;D :D :D :D

  Sure wish I had SOME idea of what y'all are talking about.??? ???

  Sure sounds impressive, though  ;) ;) :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Jason_WI

Woodhaven,

There are no line numbers with PBASIC. Conventional BASIC used numbers which can be a pain if I wanted\ to add 10 or 20 lines of code somewhere in between lines.

With PBASIC I can add as many lines as I need anywhere in the code.

I bet your wondering how GOTO works now?

The old BASIC you would have to use GOTO 50 which would tell the program to jump to line 50 and do its thing.

50 FOR X = 1 TO 10
60 Next X

With PBASIC you have to use a label. GOTO Start would go to the label Start and do its thing.

Start:

FOR X = 1 TO 10
NEXT X

There are differences but they are easily overcome.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Jason_WI

Here's the code for a Basic stamp version of the Temparature Humidity monitor.


'{$STAMP BS2p} 'STAMP directive (specifies a BS2p)

'--------------------Define LCD constants--------------------------
WakeUp CON %00110000 'Wake-up
FourBitMode CON %00100000 'Set to 4-bit mode
OneLine5x8Font CON %00100000 'Set to 1 display line, 5x8 font
OneLine5x10Font CON %00100100 'Set to 1 display line, 5x10 font
TwoLine5x8Font CON %00101000 'Set to 2 display lines, 5x8 font
TwoLine5x10Font CON %00101100 'Set to 2 display lines, 5x10 font
DisplayOff CON %00001000 'Turn off display, data is retained
DisplayOn CON %00001100 'Turn on display, no cursor
DisplayOnULCrsr CON %00001110 'Turn on display, with underline cursor
DisplayOnBLCrsr CON %00001101 'Turn on display, with blinking cursor
IncCrsr CON %00000110 'Auto-increment cursor, no display shift
IncCrsrShift CON %00000111 'Auto-increment cursor, shift display left
DecCrsr CON %00000100 'Auto-decrement cursor, no display shift
DecCrsrShift CON %00000101 'Auto-decrement cursor, shift display right
ClearDisplay CON %00000001 'Clear the display
HomeDisplay CON %00000010 'Move cursor and display to home position
ScrollLeft CON %00011000 'Scroll display to the left
ScrollRight CON %00011100 'Scroll display to the right
CrsrLeft CON %00010000 'Move cursor left
CrsrRight CON %00010100 'Move cursor right
MoveCrsr CON %10000000 'Move cursor to position (must add address)
MoveToCGRAM CON %01000000 'Move to CGRAM position (must add address)
 
'-------------------------ADC Variables------------------------------
 
Channel var nib       'set channel to 0 for if your using CH0
                      '1 if your using Ch1 and so on.
Chsel var byte             'channel select
ADCin var word             'ADC reading X var nib
RH      var WORD      'RH calculated value
RHV0  con 800           'millivolts out at 0%RH (from calibration tag)
RHS   con 21140         'multiplier, slope

'-------------MAX6674 Variables------------------------------------

maxim            var      word      'MAX6674 converted reading
maxim_raw      var      word      'MAX6674 binary value


'-----------------------MAX6674 Constants----------------------------

csmax            con      12      'enable or disable MAX6674
high csmax

'will use serDin and serclk on ADC to save on I/O pins

 
'----------------ADC Constants---------------------------------------
 
cs              con 8       'enable or disable A to D converter
serDo              con 9       'serial data out p9
serDin             con 10       'serial data in p10
serclk             con 11       'serial Clock p11
high cs             'disable

'---------------------Splash Screen-----------------------------------

Init:
GOSUB InitLCD
LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay
pause 1000
LCDOUT 1, MoveCrsr+00, ["    PO MAN'S"]
LCDOUT 1, MoveCrsr+64, ["KILN CONTROLLER"]
pause 3000
LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay
LCDOUT 1, MoveCrsr+00, [" Copyright 2002"]
LCDOUT 1, MoveCrsr+64, ["Jason Birnschein"]
pause 3000

'----------------------Configure StampPlot----------------------------

pause 10
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!SPAN 0,50",13]       'Set span for 0-50
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!TMAX 300",13]       'Set for 300 seconds
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!PNTS 1000",13]       '1000 data points per plot
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!TSMP ON",13]        'time stamp on
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!SAVD ON",13]        'save data to text file
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!TITL Temperature Data Logger",13] 'Title the form
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!PLOT ON",13]       'Enable plotting
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["!RSET",13]       `'Reset Plot

'-----------------------Main Program-----------------------------------


main:
'pause 29000
low cs 'enable
gosub chkADC
gosub calcrh
gosub max6674
gosub prnt
'gosub stampplot
gosub linx  
goto main

'----------------------MAX186 12 bit ADC-----------------------------------------------------------

chkADC:

      channel =0  'set Channel = x, x being a nubmer between 0 to 7 depending on the channel you are using
      lookup channel, [142,206,158,222,174,238,190,254],chsel       'tell Adc what channel
      shiftout serDo, serclk, msbfirst,[chsel]                         'send the channel data
      shiftin serDin, serclk, msbpost ,[ADCin\12 ]                   'the reading 'the reading
      high cs 'disable
return

'---------------------Calculate analog reading to RH--------------------------------------------------

calcrh:

RH = (ADCin-RHV0)**RHS

return

'-----------------------Read MAX6674----------------------------------------------------------------------

max6674:

      low csmax
      pause 40
      shiftin serDin, serclk, msbpost,[maxim\10]
      high csmax
      maxim =  (maxim*50)/4      
return


'----------------------Write data to LCD-----------------------------------------------------------


prnt:
       LCDcmd 1, ClearDisplay 'clear screen Return
      lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+00, ["Temp: ",dec maxim dig 4, dec maxim dig 3, dec maxim dig 2, ".", dec maxim dig 1, dec maxim dig 0, 223, "C"] 'print results
      lcdout 1,MoveCrsr+64, ["RH: ",dec RH dig 3, dec RH dig 2,dec RH dig 1, ".", dec RH dig 0," %"]
      pause 200
return


'-----------------------Output data to Stamp Plot Pro------------------------------------------------------

stampplot:

      debug dec ADCin,cr  'output analog data
      debug dec RH, cr

return

'--------------------output data to LINX Tx--------------------------------------------------------

linx:

SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), ["Temp:, ",dec maxim dig 4, dec maxim dig 3, dec maxim dig 2, ".", dec maxim dig 1, dec maxim dig 0]
SEROUT 0, 2063,(50), [", RH:, ",dec RH dig 3, dec RH dig 2,dec RH dig 1, ".", dec RH dig 0,13 ]
return



'-----Subroutines-----
InitLCD:
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp 'Send wakeup sequence to LCD
PAUSE 10 'These pauses are necessary to meet the LCD specs
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp
PAUSE 1
LCDCMD 1, WakeUp
PAUSE 1
LCDCMD 1, FourBitMode 'Set buss to 4-bit mode
LCDCMD 1, TwoLine5x8Font 'Set to 2-line mode with 5x8 font
LCDCMD 1, DisplayOff 'Turn display off
LCDCMD 1, DisplayOn 'Turn display on with blinking cursor
LCDCMD 1, IncCrsr 'Set to auto-increment cursor (no display shift)
LCDCMD 1, ClearDisplay 'Clear the display
RETURN
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

woodhaven

Ok,
That version is more readable to me. I'm stuck in the old ways to some degree. It's an old age thing.
Richard

woodhaven

I just downloaded the PBASIC instruction set. Man, you got it made.
Richard

Den Socling

hey it's coming back! I added a line to the program I wrote last night  8)

Jason_WI

Petty sneaky Den,

How about this:

'{$STAMP BS2p}

'-------------variables-----------------
Loopcontroller      VAR      WORD

'------------Main Program------------

IF Loopcontroller > 300 then buildyourown

END



buildyourown:

Debug "Use Jason's schematics and code and save the rest for beer",CR

END



Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Den Socling

touche

but I have time to drink my beer

Kevin_H.

Ok Jeff,
I think the FF site is having problems again, my screen is filled with weird lines and words that make no sense.

Maybe I got some kind of virus, How do ya tell if your computer is running a temp? ;D
Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

woodhaven

It's just stray current from all this DDC talk.
Richard

solidwoods

Kiln Control using software (kiln specific or homemade)
Using a dedicated PC as a kiln controller? (no prob Frankenstiening a PC!)    Could the outputs of the Disk drives be used as the output for the programs work?
 Program uses the .exe for each drive (or another way to say it: "drive active" solenoid "on"  drive off solenoid off) , make the PC drive output steeped up as necessary to the solenoid (or solenoid that will take the output voltage).  

Anyone know of a program that I could use to controll a kiln? Using the above idea.  I have never seen a kiln conrol program but was thinking of using/replaceing its solinoid command  with the PC's drive on/off file.  Two  solinoid minimun (temp and exhaust)so replacing 2 drives with the solinoid should be do'able. I don't know much about software or PC hardware for that much eventhough I build my own computers (cheap ass). Input from temp and humid?  If it's a windows program, paralell/serial port should be do'able.
Please let me know if you have any good input.
Thanks for any good ideas
JIM

Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Jeff

QuoteOk Jeff,
I think the FF site is having problems again, my screen is filled with weird lines and words that make no sense.

Maybe I got some kind of virus, How do ya tell if your computer is running a temp? ;D

Restart your computer. Thats not generally a forestry forum problem that I can take care of. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jason_WI

Solidwoods,

QuoteCould the outputs of the Disk drives be used as the output for the programs work?

Doubtful, you are talking about low level bit banging there. Not much power to drive the even the smallest reed relay. You need isolation and a drive circuit to switch a contactor.

If you really want to use a PC, I personally would advise against it, then take a look at National Instruments.

They have DAC cards with I/O. You then need to use LabView to use them. Be prepaired to spend lots of $$$$$.

There are also cards available from Jameco that will allow you to control IO with C++ or Visual BASIC. Most of those would be ISA bus cards.

I suppose a parallel port could be used and I have seen schematics on the net for analog input and digital output parallel port interface cards. Seems kinds cheezee and you are totally relying on billy gates crashware to control a sertpoint.

Go with a stand alone microcontroller or a PLC if you got $$$.
Use the PC to log data and to upload new setpoints from remote locations.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

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