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Started by jpickering4468, April 04, 2009, 06:59:35 AM

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jpickering4468

My wife and I are building a house and right know we are trying to nail down the materials that we will use to finish it.  It will be a timber frame so, we are looking into panel products.  I'm not interested in using foam and I don't want osb in the house so, you can imagine finding a panel product that meets those criteria hasn't been easy.  We did find one type that might work for us with some adaptation; it's called Agriboard and it comes from Texas.  It's basically a compressed straw panel covered with a very thick kraft paper they call this product Compressed Agricultural Fiber Panels.  I have all kinds of ideas on how to use this to insulate my house but, I'm wondering if any of the other members have experience working with it for real?  Thanks for your time, Jason and Wife.
Slow and steady.

fishpharmer

Never heard of it until now.  I went to the website and watched the video.  Sounds good to me, and the video addressed fire and insect resistence.  No mention if the R factor insulating quality. 
http://www.agriboard.com/VideosPhotos.htm

Let us know how it compares price wise to other materials.

I think I would want to see some other structures built with it. Possibly talk with owners of older structures.  I hope someone here has some experience with it.




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moonhill

Hi Jason, Fox Maple in western Maine has used these.  The company shut down for a while, I am glad to see them up and running once more.  They first use drywall as a skin on the panel and now use OSB, I would like have the choice but that may be a luxury and asking too much.  I went back to the site and they do make a Agri-Core panel with just a paper face, I wonder if this could be used in a wrap and strap system with 2 or more layers for added mass and R-value?  If you are using a timber frame for structure you may not need the OSB for the structure.  Foam panels should have OSB for nailing, inside and out.  Maybe it is a stretch to think screws will bind in the compressed straw, I think it is possible, the company should answer this question.

I saw on the site R-values of 13 for the 4" panel and 25 for the 8" panel.  One of the advantages of skins it the ability to make a tight house, which is of course a double edged sword. 

They are heavy,  14 pounds / cubic foot.  My crazy math says that is 140+ pounds for a 4"x4'x8' panel. 

I am looking into clay and wood chip as an infill system.  These straw panel open a second choice. 

Tim
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jpickering4468

Hey Tim,
Glad to see your reply,  I found these panels and then later I ended up reading one of the joiner's quarterly mags and saw that they built their office with them.  I wrote Steve Chapelle the director of Fox Maple and now I'm just waiting on a reply.  I found out through speaking with the company that the 3.5" paper faced panel alone without osb has a r value of about 1.5/inch.  Now compared to foam thats pretty low but foam's not an option and neither is fiberglass.  The fiberglass people boast that they get around r-3.5 per inch but I don't believe it for a second especially with all the thermal breaks.  The Agriboard 3.5" no osb will cost about 1.60/sf plus mileage 1.50/mile, this is a little lower than the price of blue board and Agriboard is completely non toxic and 99% recycled material.

This is my plan for application:
1 Build frame
2 Build light 1*4 grid work between outside edges of posts, girts, and plates. This grid work will be flush with the outside of the main frame. This will also have window and doors framed into it.
3 Attach chicken wire to the outside faces of the frames.
4 Stand agriboard up like you would a SIP onto a ledge that sits under the sills.  Tack agboard on with washer head nails or screws.     
5 Cover agboard with a breathable barrier product.
6 Vertically strap with 1* to provide breathing room and then screw through vertical strapping, agpanel, and into the interior frame.  Then apply my horizontal siding.
7 I will let the frame move and dry for a while and then I plan to fill the interior cavities between the posts and framing members with woodchip clay infill.
That's the plan for the walls and I have almost got the roof designed.  The roof will have a three panel stack to build up the thermal mass.  Like you said Tim the weight will be an issue on the roof, I will have to build accordingly.  I will let you know how it works out.  Have you worked with the wood chip/clay infill before and do you like it?  I think It's a great way to use up your scrap while insulating your home!  And you get a really cool looking wall!  Very exiting stuff!

I think Steve Chappell is still in Costa Rica but, when he replies to me I will forward it to you.
Slow and steady.

Raider Bill

The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

jpickering4468

Well Raider bill,
There are many reasons that I have chose to stay away from foam.  One is, because I'm a fire fighter and that stuff kills firemen and people fast with the gases it gives off when it burns.  Two, is it's highly flame able.  Three, I'm just trying to keep the house as free of toxins as possible because we are surrounded by toxic crap with everything we do and I didn't want my home to be another toxic area.  But I would still be looking into expanded polystyrene SIPS if I never read the MSDS sheets and didn't know what those chemicals can do to a fella.  I guess I just read to much.  Hope I didn't put you off.- Jason       
Slow and steady.

Raider Bill

It's a little late to put me off. I already built with foam, ICF's actually. :D
Was just wondering. All your concerns are something to think about I guess. I really don't have much foam that's not covered with sheet rock.

Theres some guys on this board that really know timberframes as they have built already. Checkout thehardways posts he is building a hybrid. There's a lot of talent and knowledge here!

I've never heard of agriboard. I have seen Sips used in a timber frame.

I haven't spent a lot of time in the ICF house but I got to tell you as far as insulation goes it lives up to the rep. Just like living in a cooler, keeps your temp long time!.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

moonhill

Jason, that is interesting to combine the two systems.  And I would be interested in Steve C. reply.  I like the possibility of choice when it comes to building.  As a fire fighter wouldn't it be nice if all buildings were wood chip and clay around a timber frame, it might put you out of a job. 

Foam is an excellent insulator but carries no mass.  Fire can spread quickly if there is no mass to absorb the heat.

Tim
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PineNut

My concern about the Argiboard would be the binders in it. In OSB, it is not the wood that is the problem but the materials used to glue it all together.

If you want fire protection, use sheet rock on the walls and ceiling. I have been to a number of fires when the building had sheet rock on the interior. The interior had completely burned out and the fire had gone out. The structure was not touched by fire. All firemen had to do was ventilate the smoke out of the building and fill out the paperwork.


moonhill

It is my understanding there is no binder used in the straw panels, they use the natural glues in the straw and it is released under the high pressure used to press the panels together. 

Tim
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jpickering4468

Raider bill,
Thanks for the tip, I will check out that post.  I'm glad to hear that your happy with your house.  it seems to me that those ICFs' would make for a comfortable environment.

Tim, 
First I was trying to figure out a way to layer the panels on the walls in order to build up enough to make a good thick insulation but I couldn't come up with a sane way to attach them to the frame.  They would have been 10.5 " thick=long nail.  When I found out about the wood chip clay infill everything clicked.  The only concern I have is condensation forming between the two systems after the infill drys and shrinks.  Maybe I'm paranoid.
   I'm actually just a volunteer fire fighter but the stories the real fire fighters tell is enough to keep me away.  When you live in a small community as I'm sure you know every one's a volunteer.

Pinenut,
Tim's got it right there are no binders introduced to the mix.  I sent for a sample from the company and it's just straw that has been superheated and has released a naturally occurring glue and then it's compressed until it's just a tight straw and paper sandwich panel.
For the fire protection, the seven inch clay mix should do the trick. 
Slow and steady.

moonhill

Jason, it may be worth it to put the question of breathability to Agriboard.  I would guess that the OSB would be a barrier but straw and paper may breath enough.  The clay will for sure. 

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

jmsiowa

When I was in grad school up in the panhandle.  An outfit opened a plant north of Amarillo to produce these type of straw panels.  Plant had to shut down due to the fact that the wheat varieties grown locally were too short as compared to ones in Canada.  This company is different than that one.

Thehardway

Jason,

Even firemen tell lot's of stories that have little fact to back them up.  Flame spread and toxicity of smoke are both things that have to have real numbers attached to them before you can get a rating for a material used in a building.  The EPS that ICF's are made of is not the same stuff as a coffee cup.  In fact they will not self support a flame.  Flame spread rating for ICF walls is actually 0. I have tried to burn mine and they won't, they will melt when heat is applied and then burn as external flame is applied but as soon as the flame source is removed they self extinguish. When burning the toxicity of the smoke is less or comparable to that of SPF lumber which WILL burn readily on its own. Additionally EPS has virtually no offgassing. The same cannot be said about wood materials.

The fire rating of an ICF wall is somewhere between 2 and 4 hours.  A volunteer fireman could stop by the store on his way, shop for an hour and still make it to the house in plenty of time. Add to that the concrete and steel remains structurally sound so a firefighter will never see a wall collapse in an ICF structure and I question why a firefighter would ever build anything but an ICF house.

Since they are very airtight, burning contents also have a difficult time in obtaining enough oxygen to sustain themselves.

I agree about OSB offgassing.  There are a couple options. Don't use panels, use the Wrap/Strap method of infill.  Also panels can be had with plywood vs. OSB skins. 

I am very fire conscious and I feel the ultimate combination is heavy timber  truss and ICF walls with a steel roof and hardipanel exterior.  This is what i am building.  A forest fire could sweep through my neighbor hood and I probably wouldn't even get warm.

Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

jpickering4468

To Thehardway,

Sounds like you took offense to my ideas but you know what, I didn't intend to offend you.  Some one asked "why not foam" and I shared my opinions with them.  They are my opinions and opinions are like a-hole's -every body's  got'em.   Fire is a concern but not my main concern.  I try
to be concsious of the chemicals I'm using and I try to protect myself and family as much as possible.  I used to work in boat yards around this area, and I know that there were chemicals all over the place, one of them was styrene (also in "eps").  Styrene is one of those fun chemicals that causes nerve damage.  The owners of the boat yards would do everything they could to keep you from breathing the stuff, because if you got sick they have to pay for it.  I don't believe
there's no off gassing.  That is something I would say if I were trying to sell a product as well.  They said the same thing about OSB, ply wood, and a lot of other things.  Now they say, oh that's ok well just put in a ventilation system so you only have to breath some of the off gases. and I know you guys are all rolling your eyes and warming up typing hand, but let me finish.

It comes down to this: Wood, clay, and straw have been used to build houses for thousands of years and it works.  These straw panels are a huge step forward and it will make the process much easier but it's still just straw.  And to me it's piece of mind to know that I'm not using all kinds of  chemicals to build and insulate my house. 

I'm limiting the chemicals where I have a logical alternative, but I can't get away from them completely oh well, I'll do what I can.  Thats the story, I'm done with my rant.- Jason

PS- We also grow our own food and eat organic. :D
     
Slow and steady.

Thehardway

Jason,

No offense taken.  I commend you for abstaining from chemicals and toxins.  I am trying to do likewise.  I know some guys that worked in the boatyard industry and have nerve damage from exposure as well.  Pentane is the blowing agent used for EPS and it off-gasses during manufacture and for a very short period of time thereafter.  It is usually completely gone by the time the ICF reaches the building site.   I like wood as well but it is not free from toxins just because it is natural.  Some woods contain toxins naturally and others can become toxic due to mold and bacteria.  Most "sick" structures are stick-framed with moldy wood and wet fiberglass insulation and gypsum board.  Organic substances provide a food source for mold and bacteria.  We are being subjected to all kinds of toxins in our homes these days both from natural and chemical sources.  The best way to avoid overexposure is to properly filter, ventilate, and change the air we live in.

I would want to know what the agriboard product does when it becomes damp.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

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