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I need help on mining!

Started by woodsteach, April 02, 2009, 10:44:09 AM

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woodsteach

We have been approached by a company that wants to mine limestone on our place.  The rock will be used for wind turbine roads etc. that is going in on our place and neighbors as well.

So how do you deal with miners?
The ground is used as pasture ground right now and would like to have it returned to the current conditions.

Do any of you have experiences dealing with this type of operation?
What questions need asked?
What stipulations need made?

Any and all help please.

woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

Dan_Shade

i've seen first hand what an unscrupulous contractor can do to prime farmlands.

if it were me, i'd force them to operate in small zones, one at a time, and then fix the damage to acceptable conditions prior to moving to the next zone.  I'd also section off the zones with fencing to keep them from screwing up surrounding areas.

do you have rock breaks that they are trying to remove?  or are they going to strip mine?

where I grew up, the limestone quarries were big holes in the ground.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Jeff

Have you ever saw a limestone quarry?  We have many in Michigan. Believe me, you will never get it returned to its original condition. You might get a lake though.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

woodsteach

Well I guess I haven't seen much in the way of quarries.  Although a lake with some nice big large mouths and crappies would be a nice new addition!!!

Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 02, 2009, 10:48:34 AM

if it were me, i'd force them to operate in small zones, one at a time, and then fix the damage to acceptable conditions prior to moving to the next zone.  I'd also section off the zones with fencing to keep them from screwing up surrounding areas.

That is a great idea.

Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 02, 2009, 10:48:34 AM

do you have rock breaks that they are trying to remove?  or are they going to strip mine?


I have no idea.  I know what we have is Large limestone rocks that come out in sections usually 10-12" thick and approx 3'x6'

woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

Tom

If it is a lake that they are going to leave, make sure that there is egress.  Most of the quarries in Florida are very deep and have sides that are straight up and down.  The hole doesn't always fill to the top with water and things fall in.  Then they can't get out.

I've thought about having a pond dug in trade for the dirt, but the dirt is worth something to me down the road and I can't grow trees or build houses on top of a pond.  It isn't as if you will ever get your dirt back.

I'd think long and hard before I gave up ground forever. :)

OneWithWood

You really need to go visit some limestone quarries.

Quarring limestone is not like digging a gravel pit.  Limestone is extracted in large blocks generally and it does leave a really big square hole with high vertical sides.  Recovering a site is very expensive.  The area around here is littered with abondoned quarry holes filled with water and whatever fell in or was thrown in.

Crushing the limestone creates huge amounts of dust.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

CLL

All you will end up with a limestone quarry is cracked walls and basements and a big pond to fish in. They have dozens of them close to me and they all look alike, BIG HOLES.
Too much work-not enough pay.

gunman63

If all they want is fo roads and stuff arund the turbines, is not like there goin to tear up the whole place, dependig on what your land  typo is like, rolling or flat,, just have them work a hill side  if u have them,If u have livsock your goingto need to have them grade it along the edges into the water

beenthere

All depends on the money, and what you are willing to tolerate "in your backyard".

Around here, the anti's would be in a rage and jealous that you have a chance to make some money and they don't.
They would raise particular heck at every turn, to keep you from doing what you want with your own property.

Check it out, as you are doing, and I'd have a lawyer representing you go over the words in the contract.

Your State laws and rules would possibly dictate what you/they can and cannot do to extract the stone.

As said, doubt it will ever come back to what you are looking at now..green pastures.

Hope it works for you, and maybe puts some money in the bank for your kids college tuition...or whatever.  8) 8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dan_Shade

ditto the lawyer thing.  When the companies have lawyers representing them, you need one representing you.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Modat22

be wary if you have a water well. Chances are it won't work once they start quarrying...
remember man that thy are dust.

Dan_Shade

btw, i've seen what can go wrong when people come in and dig up a big part of your land.

I know of a 2 mile stretch through prime farm land that has a 150 foot wide subsoil swath where the contractor put the topsoil back in the ditch first for a sewer line project.  It was supposed to be 40 feet wide, and topsoil returned to original depth.  they put the topsoil on the pipe, and back filled it with the subsoil.

A fence keeps them where they're supposed to be.  Just make sure you know what you're getting into before you sign up :)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

David Freed

I agree with all the comments so far. Best case scenario - You would be left with half of a hill. More than likely a big hole with vertical walls. It will never be the same. I live near the limestone capital of the world, but the best example I have seen is on the south side of Chicago. I-80 goes through the middle of it. It is 200+ feet deep on both sides of the interstate.

Fla._Deadheader


Y'all are looking at the situation, all wrong.  ::) ::)  It is a GREAT Money-Maker.

  All ya gotta do is, after that deep hole is finished, put some OLD Iron , buses, airplanes, boats, etc., in there, and charge for Scuba Diving. With the economy in the dumpster, where else ya gonna get to use yer equipment, for a cheap price ???  It's been done before.  ::) ::) ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

woodsteach

I knew that I could count on you guys to help us. 

If we do it get a lawyer but surely not just the local yocal.  What would/could he possibly know about mine contracts. 

Quote from: Modat22 on April 02, 2009, 02:50:43 PM
be wary if you have a water well. Chances are it won't work once they start quarrying...

Ok this HAS my attention.  I'm not doubting you modat but could you point me to some more info on that statement?


Quote from: Fla._Deadheader link=topic=36868.msg533219#msg533219
date=1238704950


Y'all are looking at the situation, all wrong.  ::) ::)  It is a GREAT Money-Maker.

  All ya gotta do is, after that deep hole is finished, put some OLD Iron , buses, airplanes, boats, etc., in there, and charge for Scuba Diving. With the economy in the dumpster, where else ya gonna get to use yer equipment, for a cheap price ???  It's been done before.  ::) ::) ;D ;D

Alright are you coming up here to give scuba lessons!! Just leave the gaters down there. 


Thank you all for the great information
woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

Faron

How thick is your limestone layer, and how much overburden will they have to remove?  If there is just a little topsoil over six or eight feet of limestone, I doubt you will have well problems.  If there is going to be a hundred foot hole there, it would be very possible.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

sawmilllawyer

woodsteach, go to martindale.com for information on law firms that handle mining type cases. Just like everything else get an expert in this particular field, not just a local yokel. Schedule a one hour appointment and go in prepared with every written question you can possibly think of. Some might even allow a free initial consultation, usually 30 minutes to an hour, make good use of it. Also contact your State Department of Mines or Department of Natural Resources and set up an appointment with a mine inspector or one of their experts and get the low down on restoration of the property and the business aspects of this situation before signing up. Do not be afraid to ask stupid questions because when it comes to "your place" there are no stupid questions.  Also the State usually employes Geologists who can give you a pretty good assesment of how deep the limestone would in normal circumstances be quaried. Such information might really shine some light on the entire deal. Get some answers, then make your own call. Just my two cents. Sorry for the rant. Andy.
Stihl MS-361, MS-460 mag, Poulan 2150, 2375 Wildthing.

beenthere

The concern for the well might hinge on how much blasting has to be done to remove the stone. Knowing what stone is below your well head and where the stone quarry is related to the well, would be important information.
Might be something to put in the contract...lose the well over next 10 years, they dig a new one that works. Or have a new well figured into the initial payment.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Left Coast Chris

Out here, any quary has to comply with SMARA (surface mining and reclaimation act).

SMARA requires reclaimation when they are done.  Sometimes the reclaimation is just smoothing it over and seeing that the drainage works.   There is a decent sized fee regarding a SMARA permit.    There are also local county grading permits required.   Then comes the Fish & Game (state) and Army Corps of Engineers permits if you are in any existing drainage.  If you are in a known habitat area for anything endangered or threatened (found on the natural diversity data base) then you will have to hire a biologist and do an environmental document and associated approval.   Another issue would be an Archeological site such as native americans.  That requires a permit thorough SHPO (State Historic Preservation Office).  If there are any sites  you have to hire a archeologist to do a study and get approval through SHPO.  If you live in California and want to mine............ don't even get out of bed. :)
Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

ellmoe

  If you go through with the mine, have a grade angle ( slope ) written into the contract. Steep sides do not allow for easy access and there is no littoral zone (shallow water areas) where most of the plant and animal life of a water body are developed. I've done this with "shell" mines here in Fla. and it has made some nice fishing holes. When the mine was large enough we left a very small island in the middle with a couple of trees. It made for an attractive lake, with a nice picnic spot and another fishing area fishing area.

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

OneWithWood

A lot of good info has been posted here.

Contact your nearest US Geological Survey office.  They will have all the data you need and be able to answer a lot of questions for you, free of charge.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

woodsteach

Quote from: OneWithWood on April 03, 2009, 11:57:08 AM
A lot of good info has been posted here.


I agree.  That is what is great about this forum.  A place called forestry forum and I place a question about mines and w/in minutes answers and not just answers but great answers being flowing in.

Thank you all and I'll post back with what happens.

woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

cheyenne

A top flight enviromental attorney is a must. You can plan on a $10,000 retainer & $200.00 hr. But there is no way around it. I would make them post a very large nonrefundable deposit plus a surity bond for 5 million or more. Surity bonds are dirt cheap. Good luck to you....Cheyenne
Home of the white buffalo

Modat22

Sorry bout that, some deep water wells might be damaged by the blasting. If the well isn't cased right it could cave in from blast shockwaves in the stone or if the well is fed from an underground cavern it could be damaged if the cavern collapses.

But this is a could be situation not a will be.
remember man that thy are dust.

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