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International Paper receives $71.6 million from the IRS

Started by Samuel, March 31, 2009, 11:19:53 AM

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SwampDonkey

Well your either getting too lazy or never bothered the read their website. :D

Southern Bleached Hardwood Kraft

High brightness mixed hardwood kraft pulp is manufactured at International Paper's mills in Riegelwood, NC, Eastover, SC, and Bastrop, LA. These pulps are well-suited for use in a variety of printing and writing, tissue, and specialty grades of paper.

Southern Bleached Softwood Kraft

Fully bleached, predominantly loblolly pine kraft pulps are manufactured at International Paper's Riegelwood, Eastover, and Bastrop mills.

Phone: 901-419-9213

http://www.internationalpaper.com/Paper/Paper%20Business%20Divisions/Pulp.html
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ironman

Pulp is Kraft.  Same thing as Swamp Donkey ponted out.  IP is tring to be the global super-power in providing that commodity.  So I don't think they are now or ever have been out of the Kraft business.

Northern Softwood Bleached Kraft (NSBK)
Northern Hardwood Bleached Kraft (NHBK)

These are the commodity names for exactly what IP produces and sells globally.  With many of their competitors on the ropes right now, IP is licking its chops expecting a return to profitability very soon.  We have a massive IP plant near here where a good friend of mine works.  He tells me they had a meeting a month or so ago and were literally acting like kids at Christmas because Abitibi was in Bankruptcy, so was Stone Container and several other major regional pulp producers.

I would say that IP is producing massive quantities of this black liquor if the number Swamp Donkey quoted are correct.  They are actually in the black liquor business it seems.

Time to buy IP stock.
Jesse Sewell
Ironmart Sales
888-561-1115

SwampDonkey

I only mentioned the US mills applicable to the discussion here. What about the Bleached Eucalyptus Kraft I assume being produced in Mogi Guacu, Brazil and a couple plants producing pulp (not kraft) in France and Russia. Also a mill in Pensacola, FL.

One correction though, Kraft is pulp, but pulp can be non Kraft to. Pulp from a ground wood mill isn't Kraft. It is usually called mechanical pulp. ;D

At one time the top Kraft pulp was made right here in NB at the St Anne mill in Nackawick. Parsons and Whitmore jumped ship and now that plant makes Rayon under the new Burla Group ownership.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ironman on April 01, 2009, 05:08:21 PM

I would say that IP is producing massive quantities of this black liquor if the number Swamp Donkey quoted are correct.  They are actually in the black liquor business it seems.

Essentials of Pulping and Paper Making was a reference for the black liquor yield figures.

Another book by the same author Handbook of Pulping and Paper Making, Second Edition.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))


SwampDonkey

Sounded like a temporary 7 week shutdown, but uncertainty as well. Who knows, but according to IP's website it's producing Kraft pulp.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ironman

Let me add just one thought to the discussion.  If we are talking about a company using tax credits to their benefit that is one thing.  If we are talking about how tax policy, tarrifs and other import restrictions effect our neighbors to the north and south, that is another.

I want America to be a good neighbor and unfortunately that idea is subject to the influence and lobbying power of some massive corporations with a lot of money to spend.  I think ideas like integrity and fairness get left on the House and Senate floor.

What effects Calgary does effect us in the long run.  We either succeed together or end up losing out to trading partners that have a mor emutually beneficial and truly cooperative relationship.  Right now Europe has gained some tremendous ground on us just in the past 10 years by virtue of the EU formation and the free trade zones that created.

The US on the othere hand and its regional trading partners seem to be going the other direction with more restrictions, more red tape, more import/export hurdles, more regulation.  I think the Interstate Commerce Act has been entirely forgotten.  Try to transport something from South Carolina to Texas without being harrassed by one of the states in between for fairly to comply with their peculiar transport regulations.  The result is delays, fines and the real impact is a prohibitive one the effects jobs and growth.

One State should not be able to infringe upon anothers right to conduct free and fair trade.  We should apply the same standard to our neighbors North and South of us.  In the end we are all Americans.  I say create one massive free trade zone and let the chips fall where they may, figuratively speaking.


Jesse



www.ironmart.com
Jesse Sewell
Ironmart Sales
888-561-1115

pineywoods

I P has shut down the Bastrop La mill. 550 jobs gone. They had been making just pulp, no paper for quite some time. The mill was at least 60 years old, but had been up graded a few times. Most of the timber I have personally sold went to that mill. Last batch of chips, I got 50 cents a ton..
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SwampDonkey

With that being said, I'm now wondering when the news/rumour mill in the first post of this thread got around. Maybe it's old news, and it didn't help the bottom line as much as some forecasted. Shrug
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

The initial report about IP getting a tax credit came out about March 24.  Speculation and demonization started about 20 minutes later.   :D
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I cant accept the idea that it would be ok for them to get a credit just because they found a way to fit in by adding diesel to the green fuel they are already using, and had been using all along.  The credit was created to encourage and reward development in new uses of green fuels.  Yea, so everybody should pay less taxes. One Million of us could be paying $71.60 less if it wasn't for this.  That's one of the reasons we do pay higher taxes. To pay for those that are not paying fairly. I guess if its legal its fair, but it does not make it right.
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SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on April 02, 2009, 04:52:04 PM
The initial report about IP getting a tax credit came out about March 24.  Speculation and demonization started about 20 minutes later.   :D

Heck, anyone gaining an advantage over the competition is always demonized. Even loggers do that when 4 are fighting over the cutting rights of a woodlot. All kinds of stories emerge. :D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Samuel

I am not seeing the comical side to this one guys.  The seriousness of it all is that our North American competitors are able to put even more pulp on the already severely glutted market at such a reduced cost (nearly half price) really is not doing anything to help the state of the industry.
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Dan_Shade

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There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

It will all play out in the end I'm sure. Those that sore for awhile, eventually crash and burn.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Quote from: Samuel on April 03, 2009, 10:09:04 AM
I am not seeing the comical side to this one guys.  The seriousness of it all is that our North American competitors are able to put even more pulp on the already severely glutted market at such a reduced cost (nearly half price) really is not doing anything to help the state of the industry.

The comical side to this is that as soon as a company takes advantage of a law that was loosely written, they are the villains.  Everyone jumps on the bandwagon to make industry the bad guys.  Meanwhile, the politicians get off the hook.  They're the ones that are damaging the industry, whether through design or not.  If you blame industry, then all blame gets diverted off of the politician.

Its real easy to blame industry, and in this case, one specific company.  They followed the rules that government put up.  They made money and everyone knows that you either make money by cheating or stealing.  Rarely is it due to hard work or from following the rules.  \sarcasm.

IP has shown a bright light on a problem with the system.  Has anyone tried to fix the system?  No, its easier to throw out blame and say that IP is the problem.

Wait until IP figures out that all you have to do is put a little bit of diesel in with that pulp and burn it in a co-gen plant, then they'll be able to get another tax deduction and solve the market problem at the same time.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

olyman


Black_Bear

Quote from: Samuel on April 03, 2009, 10:09:04 AM
I am not seeing the comical side to this one guys.  The seriousness of it all is that our North American competitors are able to put even more pulp on the already severely glutted market at such a reduced cost (nearly half price) really is not doing anything to help the state of the industry.

Not to mean any disrespect to Samuel, but I find it rather ironic that someone from Canada would bring up the issue of subsidies, tariffs, duties, countervailing duties, tax breaks, etc. The U.S.-Canadian lumber dispute has been going strong for over 100 years now and as global markets shift we now find the disputes creeping more and more into other markets for forest products. Bottom line is: the U.S. and Canada need each other. We are each others largest trade partner, especially with forest products, and as the economy tightens I'm afraid that we will continue to see more and more loopholes exploited.

I'm not condoning what the pulp companies are doing, but I'm not against it either. It sounds like a smart business move. The problem begins with Congress and the language in the 2005 transportation bill. Consider it the forest industries version of a bailout if you will, but we shouldn't lump the pulp companies in with AIG and the rest of the scumbag corporations and politicians who continue to drain this nation of jobs and continue to shift paper wealth in the middle of the night at the expense of small business and the American taxpayer. It now sounds as though more than enough war chests have been thumped and Congress is aware of the loophole the pulp companies are exploiting.

Here is an article addressing the issue:   http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090420/hayes

I find it rather humorous that the article is listed under "white-collar crime". This issue is benign compared to billion dollar Ponzi schemes and disappearing 401K's. I find it highly amusing, and highly disturbing, that we, as American citizens, continue to allow our politicians and their cronies to act as they do.

Ed       

Ron Scott

Key US Senators May Look To End The Black Liquor Alternative Fuels
Credit For Kraft Pulp Makers

http://www.timberbuysell.com/Community/DisplayNews.asp?id=4493

Smallwood-News
~Ron

nb_foresttech

A race to the bottom!!
Unfortunately most countries and industries are in a race to the bottom. The country who will subsidize a industry or process in the form of tax credits, labour cost, environmental regulation or natural resource will in the short term attract and retain these multi national companies. Business as always, people are employed, CEO's and shareholders are paid, politicians are re-elected and the ball keeps rolling. The true cost of these measures are staggering and the lost opportunities unmeasurable. Ultimately operating any business that is not sustainable will cost us as a society.True markets will correct themself, a industry that is falsely subsidized will not, and the value of the product will be artificially low. This is compounded by loss of investment into technology and development of new products and opportunities.
As an individual who cares a great deal about the environment, management of natural resources and the value of forest products I am concerned about these subsidy practices. The future looks bleak for all of us if the forestry industry stays in its current state. Ultimately if the forestry business sector is not profitable or loosing money, reduced taxes are collected, reduced stumpage sales and rates. Now do you suppose that just might impact any of the users of this site? Does it really matter what side of the U.S. Canada border you live on. Collectively we have to work together to maintain what we have in North America. Managed and sustainable forest that will meet our present needs and those of our children. The alternative could be the third world approach... Environmental policy? Labour cost? Resource Management? Where do you want to be?

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