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Old beam to flooring question

Started by shinnlinger, March 03, 2009, 06:45:06 PM

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shinnlinger

HI,

It is time to tear down the old family homestead.  Kinda sad to waste a late 1800's timber frame, but it ain't in great shape and it was pretty under-built in the first place.  At one point I was going to reuse the frame, but it would be honestly foolhardy to do so.

At the same time I need flooring for the new place and am sentimental.  Would like to use something from the old place....

My thought at the moment (until someone here tells me different) is to 1x the beams and after letting them acclimate to the new house for a while, glue and face nail them setting the heads.  Then rent a drum sander and smooth it all out.  Dusty but it is new construction and it may shrink and gap some but Isn't that the charm? I can cram hemp rope in the gaps if I need to, but how much is 100+ year old dry wood going to shrink?

My new house is also a timber frame so it could work out style wise.

Thoughts???
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Fla._Deadheader


  Why not. Both houses are your's right  ::) ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

logwalker

It all depends on where they are at now. Take some samples and put them side by side and measure the total width. Then put them in a 250 degree oven and dry completely. Put them side by side again and measure the width again. You will see the difference.

Are you going to tongue and groove them? Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

shinnlinger

Logwalker,

That is a great idea with the oven.  I have milled up the flooring for my cupala with a T+G, but it took too long for not alot of product.

There is a local construction co with all the equipment and the time to t+g my boards, and I bet they would love a little work right now, but I am trying to figure out a way to avoid hauling a bunch of boards around.

If the boards dont move much in your oven test, I will be tempted to lay them as they come off the mill and rent a big belt sander for the day.

I suppose I could use the dado on table saw and make ship lap as lay them.  glue as I go and get some cut nails.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Dodgy Loner

Of course the boards are going to move if you oven-dry them.   Oven-drying to 215-217oF will bring the boards to 0% moisture content (MC).  In your home, the boards will never get below 7-8% MC (although this could vary depending on your location).  In my home, MC averages 8-9% in the dead of winter.  If you're in Death Valley, MC could get much lower.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

moonhill

I tried one of those big belt sanders and was not impressed.  Most likely it was the operator.  After the rental cost, I found the 6" hand held orbital sanders (bosch) did a nice job for a fraction of the cost and the results were satisfactory.  This was on rough sawn stock from my own mill, it is nearly uniform in thickness so not much concern with different thickness boards.  Using old bands may cause some issues in this regard.   As for dryness, saw them and let them acclimate in the house then install.    I also use a  1/4" grove cutter in a router and insert a free spline, this way you don't loose any surface area and the job is simple.  Run the splines through the planer.  Mass cut the splines on the band mill, I typically use hard wood.   


This is a test, please stand by...

logwalker

I was only suggesting the oven test as a way to determine where the boards are at now. Depending on the specie and using a moisture shrinkage chart he could get a good idea of what he has. Shinn, weigh the boards before you dry them and again afterward and someone on the forum smarter than me can tell you what the MC is now. 
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

beenthere

Like logwalker said...
weigh the board (or a sample piece) before oven drying, and
then weigh it after oven drying.
Divide the "difference between these two weights" by the oven dry weight.
That will give you the moisture content of the sample when multiplied by 100
(that is just to move the decimal point out of the way  :) ).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

shinnlinger

Logwalker and Been there,

I really like the oven test just to see how wet the stuff is.  The way I work, I will mill the stuff this summer and set it in the house and won't lay it for 5 years so I bet it will be acclimated by then!

Moonhill,

I like an excuse to by a heavy duty tool (and I like the idea of my wife sanding the boards) and I like the the spline.  Did you shoot nails through the spline like conventional flooring so it was blind nailed???  Any adhesive???  Regular flooring nailer????  I plan on milling the planks from old timbers, so they should be a pretty consistent  thickness.

In my mind I could see using a router table and configuring a stackable router bit to give the top edge a 45 degree bevel and make the spline notch at the same time.

To make the spline, I can see making a 2x ( if 2 inch is a good width for a spline) ash or maple and then setting it on edge and shaving 3/8ish boards off on the mill and then planing for consistency.  Great idea!

If it comes to face screwing the boards, does any one have a source for walnut, or some othe dark wood plugs( to hide the screw heads) ????  Sure I can make my own but buying a bag or two might be the way to go....
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

moonhill

Shinnlinger,  Tremont Nail Company, skip the hullabaloo and face nail with cut nails.  Sure, squeeze some adhesive down, I am using a Ryobi calking gun, it is some nice.   As for the spline, I use a 7/8" board and a slot cutter that cuts 9/16"deep, I don't want the spline bottoming out.  I don't blind nail them, face nail.  What is the function of the 45° angle and how big is it, like V-groove, is it that large or are you just wanting to ease the edge. 

Tim
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shinnlinger

Thanks Moonhill for the nail source,  If I glue and nail why do I need a spline???

The idea behind a bevel is so if/when the boards shrink it won't be so obvious. Acentuate the joint vs trying to hide it.

Thanks.

Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Raphael

The spline helps make any gap visually shallower.
If you don't have a subfloor it keeps dirt from falling through and if you do the dirt is closer to your vacuum.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

moonhill

Rafael, I'm on a roll in agreement.  Those are the reason for using the spline.  I, at times, use a 5/4 board as a single layer with the spline.  I am sure any which way you go with your flooring will get you covered.  I would think sweeping a floor with a V joint in it would be frustrating.

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

shinnlinger

Wifey likes the spline....I like not making a v groove...Were in!!!! 

Now the question is to glue or not to glue????  I will be laying this on subflooring, so if I paper I can talk myself out of glue

Thanks for the input!!
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Brad_bb

What do you do to keep the floor from creaking when installing a floor like this?  Is there some type of underlayment to use, foam, or does the glue do it?  Will the glue eventually (40 years?)dryout and crack and no longer adhere?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Raphael

I stapled my T&G Cypress through red rosin paper into the subfloor and called it good...
IMHO if it creaks a little it adds character to the house. ;)

If your serious about eliminating creaks you have to start by gluing and nailing (or screwing) the subfloor securely to the joists and glue is a waste if they are green timbers.  How long glue lasts depends greatly on how much things can move.
If your floor has bounce or the finished floor expands and contracts alot glue will break once it becomes hard and inflexible .  Otherwise some can last as long as the wood they are bonding.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

moonhill

I had this discussion with a client the other day.  The floor only squeaks in the morning when you are trying to be quiet, hardly noticed during the day.  It can double as a security system as well.

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

shinnlinger

OK,

So how did you install that floor?  Over rosin paper???   GLue and facenailed or just facenailed????
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

moonhill

I am ashamed to say. :-X, but here goes.  The floor I was talking about is in my own house, it squeaks to excess.  It is two layers of plywood, no glue, screwed down with drywall screws.  I fear the screws have broken in places.  I used store bought 2x6's for joist and the span for them is excessive.  It is completely wrong in all ways.  I built this 18 years ago before I knew better.  I have corrected my ways. 

I know people have used tar paper or the pink paper as an under layer.  I am under the impression it does two things, it is a dirt/dust filter and aids in  preventing squeaks.  The cut nail way adds the possibility of attractiveness and simplicity to the project, I wouldn't even worry about scuffs and hammer tracks, have the kids help, if you get a crack on an end caused by the fat nail, so be it.  Would you angle the nail?  I think so, not too much just enough so it is not wanting to come straight up, over the years.   I hope for corrections in my assessment.  Raphael has some good points.

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

shinnlinger

Moonhill,

Now I see the reluctance to reply, but have no fear....Like you said, you did the best you could (or afford) at the time you did it.  No shame in that.  I have lots of stuff laying around that if I knew then what I know now it would be different.  That is how you get experience.

Raphael,

Did you staple the tongues so there were not visible in the finished project???
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

mmhailey

shinnlinger.

Here is the link to my thread:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31053.msg448081.html#msg448081

The decking was 6/4 Alaskan Hemlock with T&G

The flooring has been through the winter here in a heated environment. The boards did shrink in width over the winter, opening gaps that you can now see the tongues, however I would have to say it still looks very good.

I have been working in the room with the doors open over the last 2 weeks and I am sure the humidity level has come up considerably( We live in a rain forest here!).. So the gaps have closed up some.  I would send you a pic, but I have it covered with plywood now protecting it while I do the timber framing in the kitchen.

I used the PL400 adhesive, and nailed Ring shanks through the tongues with my framing gun, and not one board has cupped, and loosened ( Yet! )   8)...  PL400 would glue a cat to a wall!

I am still working on the space, so finishing will probably not happen for several more months.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Raphael

The 3/4" Cypress is all stapled on the tongues so the only nails you see are on the starter and finish courses where I used old fashioned cutnail style finish nails.

Upstairs I'm 6/4" T&G SYP face nailed to the timber joists with 16d cut nails.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

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