iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Appalachian Saddle Notch

Started by Don P, August 06, 2003, 06:26:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Don P

I'm working on a remodel job right now, an 1840's hewn white oak saddle notched cabin that has been in this family since the late 1840's. Its been something else to listen to the folks tell stories.

I thought you all might like a shot of the notch, this is the same notch showed in the foxfire book. Theirs showed laying out with a framing square and resulted in a 900 notch angle. Doing an average survey of ours looked like they were shooting for 450 on our cabin, I made a 1/4" plywood template for total replacement logs. The cabin we took down was somewhere in between anglewise, I'm cutting new notches on old logs. Often one or both edges met existing notches and it was "match existing" :D.
The photo is my second try after really blowing the first cut, but it showed the notch the best of the shots we got today.



Jeff

Is that a chainsaw brake laying on the pallet?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Don P

No that's a back break on the pallet :D
I gotta give the old timers credit, their corner stones were dug in below our local frost depth. I left one that said it wanted to be the bottom of the hole.
Here's a shot of that log in the wall, it's the bottom longer  one. We're building from the top down ;D

I've been putting some pics up as we work on the cabin.
http://www.ls.net/~windyhill/padgett.htm
Aside from calculators I learned from you and Ron, I think you showed me how to do the html too Jeff, Thanks for the eddication.

HORSELOGGER

Hey Don... Whenr them joints gonna be ready fer some stikum???? ;)
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

Tom

That's just got to be metal detecting territory.  I figure that a fork or spoon must have made it to the yard or perhaps a builder lost a knife under the building.  Might be a hundred thousand dollars in confederate money stached between two of the logs. :D

How about showing some more pictures of your joinery.  That is really interesting.

Don, you really need to leave your mark in that old building too.  Not the kind of mark that a newspaper reporter would find but one that another timber framer might.   Like sticking new dimes or quarters between logs with a piece of paper saying who you were/are.

Maybe business cards stuck in out-of-the-way places.  Make a journal of the rehabilitation and hide it down low where a fire might not get to it.  Kind of like generating a time capsule in a corner stone. :)

Don P

Hey Horselogger  :)
We made up an order last week but came up near $500 on shipping. One of the homeowners plans on making the drive to pick it up next week. Realistically about a month out on chinking, feel free to bop on over. I was looking at getting a Cox bulk loading gun, looks similar to what you were using? Want to get it all set back down on new foundations first. I did get about 8' back down on terra firma yesterday.

We were looking at weatherall 1010 sanded latex chink over ethafoam trapezoids called "grip strip" We used to use that foam in sheets for boat flotation but I can't find it in bulk anymore. They're making a killing on this stuff and I think I could just rip it on the table saw if I could find sheets :-/



Here's a shot last week from the site of the cabin we dismanteled for replacement logs. It is in Virginia's highest valley, Burke's Garden. It is named for James Burke who explored and hunted the area. One evening he was peeling potatos by the campfire and planted the peels. The next year when they returned, the plants had flourished and his companions laughingly called the place Burke's Garden. He moved there for a few years but the Shawnee moved him back out.
George Vanderbilt tried to purchase the area for a country estate but the locals wouldn't sell. He moved near Asheville and built Biltmore Castle there instead. The valley is also called "God's Thumbprint", it is a bowl in a fairly high ridge in the area between the tunnels on I-77, almost in WV.

Tom,
I do like to leave messages in hidden areas. We usually sign the backside of the upper gable siding or trim. If the homeowner is present they get the honor. I worked on one old cabin from the 1770's that had a note scratched in charcoal in one wall, it told of doing fire repair in the 1860's...I recall a fellow through there had trouble with matches about that time.

Paul_H

That is one interesting project you have going there Don.
In our area here,it would be hard to find anything much over a hundred years old. In the Caribou,there are a few old farm houses but they would be relatively new.(1880's)

It seems that as well as being a timber framer/log builder,you have to be a arkyologist.

Hope to see more on your project.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Kevin


Don P

Kevin,
Same foam, same supplier, just thicker, look at "grip strip" here:
http://www.loghelp.com/backerod.html

We got it in sheets about 2" thick and 2x8' and used it for kayak and canoe walls, seats etc. when I worked in a canoe livery. I was hoping to find it in 1" thick sheets and rip the bevel on the saw.

A fellow did sweep the site with a metal detector, he apparently concentrated around the big maples figuring people congregated there in the shade. My teenage helper has been asked several times to bring his detector...he's doing good when he brings his lunch :D

During the major remodel in 1965 the 5/8x6 poplar weatherboarding was removed, it had been installed in 1865. A sword in its sheath was found in between the walls. A rifle with bayonette was found around the same time in the attic. Its stamped 1877 in several places and has what appears to be the crown's mark  ???.

One story the owners told.
Their ancestor Fleming Thomas was a town doctor during the civil war years. As the war was drawing to a close a yankee in uniform came into town and was shot on entering. As the doctor worked to try to save the man he asked "What were you doing entering a southern town in uniform?"
"Don't you know, the war is over?" was the reply.
The soldier is buried at the old Methodist church nearby. As Dr Thomas worked on the man they each came to know the other was a Mason. The soldier gave his ring to Dr Thomas who later gave it to his daughter who is buried with it. She was the great grandmother of the folks I'm working for.

Neat thing about working for old families. I had been talking about getting a few poplar trees from a logging job an uncle of theirs is having done to make new weatherboard for the addition wing. They came back " Uncle Lawrence said that would be fine but if you want, there's some of that siding in the old barn over at Grandaddy's place, they figure it was stored there about 60 years ago. :D

Kevin

This canoe company has been in business many years, I don't know that this is the same foam but it might be a lead...

http://www.bwmarineproducts.com/pointed_canoes.htm

smwwoody

Don

It looks like you have just what I need to help with the restoration project that I have to get started on.  I need the cab from your Dodge truck!  I have a 1992 Cummins diesel 1 ton that the cab is in aboout the same shape as the house you are working on. It is still a great truck if it only had a cab... ::) :'( :'( :'(

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Don P

Well I tell ya, there I was two winters ago, rebuilt the Dodge, that one is the new one, an '80. It was the 4th engine (but back to the original  :D) and the third tranny. I go to step in and fire the pup up...and step through the Dang truck >:( :D. Its got about 3 gallons of resin and fiberglass underfoot now. I had a leaf fire under the dash this winter, cost me a good cup of much needed coffee when the defrogger started looking like autumn bonfire She's old but I know how it works (most days). I'm slowly restoring a '35 Dodge pickup, had the cab sheetmetal done last year, ouch!
I imagine that drivetrain you have could outlast a coupla cabs ;D


smwwoody

Yea she has 265000 miles on it now and still doing fine  dropped the pan down to check the bearings a 250 and they looked like new.  
well I guess I will have to take a ride down your way then over through Tenn.  looking through the junk yards for a new cab
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Don P

I got a better shot of the notch today.


Here's that south wall again. We got the rest of the logs in on that side and started up with the rock . By the right rock you can see an I beam standing vertical on the footer, count up 4 logs and notice the leg of angle iron protruding through a horizontal joint. Below that is the new logs.


You know we never have had an ugly truck contest...can we have multiple entries :D

smwwoody

ive got that wone hands down 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Don P

I finally had my camera when Judge came out today with his rifle and sword from the story above.


UNCLEBUCK

Don P.  whats the length of the longest logs on that project? That is a really neat way of doing notches !  great pictures and hope you show alot more all the way to completion, very nice. what would you say the r- value is on a hardwood log like that ? thanks for showing
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Don P

UncleBuck,
The cabin is about 19x22, the one we took down for parts was about 20x28. The pic of my trailer shows some of the 28's I brought back...gotta new tranny in the truck now  :-[, shoulda borrowed my buddy's F350.
Started chinking last week using synthetic chink over ethafoam to replace the mortar that was in there last. It was about R 0 and where it let go of the wood had channelled in moisture, this stuff has some r value and flexes to stay attached with movement. I extended the overhangs as much as possible to try to keep it dry.
Most wood comes in around R1 per inch of thickness with a variation among species of about a quarter point. Without looking it up I'd guess this old growth white oak is down around .75 per inch and the walls are about 6" thick...~R4.5.
I'm south of the thermal mass testing site and the study gives credit to structures that possess large thermal mass in those areas. Basically it is a lag effect, the logs average the temperature of the surrounding air so instead of trying to heat against a zero degree night, if the daytime temps are in the 30's it is effectively trying to heat against a 15degree night. The logs moderate daily temperature fluctuation. This house was by all accounts a bear to heat, it had very bad air infiltration besides the non-insulating mortar chinking. In the recent cold snap I worked outside whenever possible, it was chilly in there all day. I'll throw a barrel stove in shortly to keep working and let you know how many cords I go through.
Arky has a saying about red and white oak and it holds true in this house. Although I did replace all the lower WO logs I had to demolish the red oak timber frame section, it was totally termite eaten, from sills to rafters. This was about as far gone as anything I've attempted, one or two more winters would have seen it on the ground. Been on it 5 months and I think I see either the light or the train  :D

UNCLEBUCK

Thanks for the r value lesson and the reply ok. It really looks great from here . I just had a curious idea when I seen how you do the notches , I been cutting 28 foot oak and ash logs down to 16 + feet to make them fit my old sawmill and it just kills me to destroy a big long log but minnesota is cold and not many oak cabins around here so your pictures and story really caught my attention, I feel like I am failing at timberframing but thought what if I left the logs long and made it like this cabin you show if I could somehow winterize it enough for 5 cold months , thanks for answering  :P
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Don P

UB,
Here's the short version of the text of the report I was talking about.
http://www.handhewnloghomes.com/EnergyEfficiency/energy_effieciency_of_log_homes.htm

Heres a couple of pictures my client dropped by yesterday. They are both along the New River and were built in the late '20's as fishing/weekend retreats.
The first is The Shady Shack, built in 1928 by the father of the present owner. He remembers the men hauling the chestnut with oxen to the site. My neighbor and I redid it about 5 years ago. To tie this in with the kayak thread...one rainy day while we were working we didn't notice how fast the river was coming up. The road out went under and we left, following behind a kayak that probed the roadbed and led us out, we watched the river alot better after that  :D.


The second cabin is just down that same low water road and I've been talking to the owners...who knows. There was another cabin between the two but it was washed away in the big flood around 1940.



UNCLEBUCK

thanks don , winter has all but shut me down here now but I either have to keep the faith at my solo attempt timberframing or go back to a chainsaw and a long log and can get away with alot of sloppy workmanship , the winter months will give me time to read more and decide ;)
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Don P

Read h***, practice, if you're digging a ditch do a neat and workmanlike job of it  ;D.
Chink style cabins like those I've posted pics of do allow for a number of sins, the price is the chinking itself. Theres over 3 grand in chinking going in this one. When I do milled log with minimal or no chinking we kerf unacceptable joints till they're dollar bill tight. It took a couple of years just to get comfortable and proficient with the tools. If I were building a chinker from scratch I would lower the notches till the logs were much closer to each other. To the original builders hewing and hauling came dear, cob and daub chink was cheap, so wide gaps. On the second floor they raised the roof before the cabin was weatherboarded, they were basically just building a crib to be covered with furring strips and siding, some of the gaps are quite wide. I can saw and haul but must purchase expensive chinking, so the economics are reversed. Many modern chinkers have continuous log to log laterals covered by a thin layer of chink, makes for a stouter building. I do love the look of the chink style, its my heritage and the traditional style here, the old homeplace was chinked heart pine.

 Judge and I cut and hauled out logs for siding and trim yesterday and today. Few more loads and we'll have it. It was a fine weekend to work in the woods. He's got to go to work tomorrow, I get to go on the back 40 again  8).

The highway split the farm in the 60's, I'm up above the barn, the cabin and grainery are across the street, the woodlot is behind me.


We took the logs over to Luke's sawmill, he's got a Norwood, used to have a 00Frick.



Thank You Sponsors!