I logged, a learning experience

[Sprucegum]

It was only -10C or maybe +10F Saturday so I went logging. I need a whack o' junk logs to practice sawing this spring so I'm clearcutting about 1 acre. I was told a to get decent regen. the clearing has to have a diameter 2 1/2 times the height of the trees and they are 70-80 feet tall.
This tree set back on my wedges pretty hard so I took the easy way and tipped it over with the cat  ;D




This is the stump. What should I have done differently? Smaller notch? Leveler back cut?




This is a typical drop, before I heard of bores or wedges.




Here is a typical cut with wedges tapped in behind the saw.




My worst problem is getting a nice level cut with everything lined up - any secrets you can pass on?

Here's the whack o'logs I wound up with. The job is only 1/2 done.

[Sprucegum]

So here's the logs. I almost lost the post, type too slow I guess   

[fishpharmer]

DanG thats too cold.  I am no logger but that looks good too me and you are here to tell it. 8) 8)

[beenthere]

Sprucegum
On first looks, two things seem apparent (to me).

Almost no hinge wood left....need the hinge wood to use the wedges effectively. I'm not sure how you kept that tree off your crawler.  (but you did, and that is good)

Second, the wedges are a bit "thick" for sliding/driving into the saw kerf. That size tree should have lifted easily with two wedges. Apparently the wedges couldn't be pounded in more than what is shown in front of the crawler blade?

Now, some real help with answers may be coming from others. 

Looks like a good time in the snowy woods.  8)

[shtickhead]

I'm no expert but this seems like one of the times when the answer really is use a  BIGGER HAMMER   ;)   (And leave a bigger hinge)

[fishpharmer]

I just looked at your pictures again.  I just struck me that there is no rollbar or cab on the crawler.
Not that one would save you,    don't be pushing trees like that in my humble opinion.

I may not know what I am talking about but listen to these guys with experience.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Sprucegum Tree Falling is the Second most Dangerous Occupation in the World Mate  ;) ;D Your Scarf looks of  sufficant depth (maby an extra inch deeper  ;) ) angle looks a little low i use a 45o scarf angle which is enough for almost any job  and i cut the 45o first followed buy the horizontal as its a hell of alot easyer to line up ;) with the back cut you are too low use the rule of a 1. to 1.1/2 step per foot of dia
and the holding wood Is tooo lite When im falling the tree is well and truly on its way by the time inm down to the 2 to 3 " mark left to go and then I just following it along so i minimise grane Pull  ;) and i rarely use wedges maby 2 to 5% of the time  ;) and thats when im trying to push a tree the way I want it to go ;)  instead of he way it wants too  ;) :D :D ;D   

That brings me to the reason I think it Stood Up on You mate  ;) and its the main thing that people Overlook  when they start Falling  : Head weight or lead which is most probobly one of the hardest things to learn how to read in a tree as you have to take into account Branching habit , Lean , Sweep You can have a tree that looks like its Braching is weighted to go one way then because off the tree sweeping back the other way it will want to Stand Up on you or Worse yet it if your too far into the back cut itll snap the holding wood and go anywhere it bloodywell wants too  in a 360 deg radius And thats where things gett verry dangerous  ;)

If Your just starting out with doing your own falling Id sugest Taking a 2 day corse in Manual Falling or getting a Profesonal Faller out with you for a couple of days  ;) and also with pushing the tree over and working in the bush with the Cat id put a canopy over it Asap and if yout planing on pushing trees that stand up over make up a Tree speer to go over the blade as you need to be a good 8 to 14 feet + up the tree to be able gain more presure higher up the tree to control where its heading  ;)

After all that Mate Ive worked out the bush without rops protection when i started out using a 35 fergy  ;) :D so aslong as you take your time and and be cautious when selecting which way your going to drop the Tree & practice the 3 Ps Planning ,Patience  , Precision  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) It looks like you got a fair bit of other timber out mate so one outa Afew aint that Bad Its all Experience  ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)

Keep up the Good Work and Stay Safe Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Reguards Chris

[Kevin]

Hinge wood reacts different when frozen.
It has a habbit of pulling out and not holding and it's anyones guess which way the tree is going to fall.
I would have wanted a rope in the top of that rather than being under it with a cat for that reason.
When they set back, bore straight into the back cut and set another wedge.
Sometimes you might have to stack your wedges.
A rope in the top pulling from a safe distance is a sure and safe method.

[ID4ster]

Leave a little more hinge, get yourself some plastic wedges with a litte less taper or cut those wedges to a little less taper, make sure that the tree wasn't hung up in the crown. You'll need to determine that before you start cutting. Use a 3-5 lb axe head or hammer to drive the wedges. Otherwise you should have been able to drop that tree with the wedges. You still had plenty of distance to drive the wedges in before hitting the hinge.

[Corley5]

Since you're clearcutting fall them as they want.  Don't fight em  ;)   I'd never push over a tree with a machine that didn't have a cab designed for possible impact.  I know of too many instances of bad outcomes involving machines, especially dozers, used in the woods without cages.

[Kevin]

Were the wedges placed in the cut before or after the tree set back?

[ID4ster]

Your wedges might be too smooth. When they're smooth and slick like the ones you picture they'll slide back out of frozen wood. That's why I use the plastic ones in the winter with a rough surface that will drive into a cut and grip without sliding back out when there is too much back pressure from the stem.

[Sprucegum]

 :P  :P Some good pointers here, Thanks

Sounds like I need a bigger hammer and some better wedges 

The wedges were placed in the cut before it set back so I had no trouble getting my saw out, I just couldnot hammer them in enough to tip it over.

I could let them drop where they may but I would rather learn to drop them where I want. It makes for easier skidding too.

I will work on the hinge size as well.

[Kevin]

They should have lifted that tree but you really need to smack em.
Try to keep advancing your wedges with the bar.
Cut , hammer,cut, hammer etc.

[Woodhog]

You should never push trees over with the machine up against the tree, if it comes back the
opposite way it could land on top of the machine.. This goes for loader buckets, dozer blades
etc.

A fellow not too far from here was killed a few years back, he pushed on the tree with his tractor loader bucket the tree fell backwards over the tractor  when the hinge broke on the tree and the machine pushed the tree off the falling side of the stump and killed him...also easy to damage the machine if it doesnot get you.

I always put a cable up as high as I can and pull them down after making sure me and the
machine are far enough away.

Looks like fun though...

[Larry]

In GOL Soren taught us to put in the back cut about an inch below the hinge when ya want to push the tree over with a skidder.  It's not in the book so I can't say if it is approved or not...but I can tell you it works and works well.

[hollywoodmfg]

GOL game of logging teaches 80% x 20% on hinge size so a tree that is 20" diameter should have a hinge 16" wide and 2" thick now ya needto cheet that alittle cutting high quality ash cherry and oak but it looks like you are cutting a soft wood. one rule you should never brake is DO NOT cut hinge all the way off once ya do.the tree can go any where. it also looks like your wedges are plenty thick thinner wedges will pound easyer.hope this helps

[nas]

get wedges with a good gripping surface for frozen wood.  They have a tendancy to fire back at you when you try to drive them.  If you drive the wedge all the way in and you need more lift, cut a cookie from a nearby log or stump and put it under your othe wedge.  I have found that stacking wedges doesn't work in the winter.  Just passing on my limited experience.

Nick

[Stephen Alford]

Hey sprucegum: great thread,thought I might add a couple of thoughts that relate to my circumstances.  I try to keep in mind which way is south because a lot of times the tree will be heavy that way as it is drawn to the sunlight. Wind is always considered as shifts occur with the tides and gusts are common. The effects increase with dominancy and crown shape. Where possible I try to cut in a circle pattern that way you can cut on whichever face works best to  deal with wind etc but and you can work in the sun or shade as desired. A crosspiece on the ground about 3' out makes hitching easy.  I like wedges of different width and thickness. They tend to adjust on length by themselves. :-\ The smaller steel wedge is helpful if you get pinched. Keeping an eye on the kurf from the saw, can be an indicator that the tree is rotten and options may want to be considered.

[Sprucegum]

I have seen those bright wedges in the store, I'm gonna get me some!

OK, no more pushing with the cat    new wedges and a heavier axe instead of the hatchet should mean I never need to anyway.

Do I understand correctly? - the back cut should be 1 or 1.5 inches above the level of the notch on a 20" tree? Most of mine are 8 - 14" DBH but I see the relation.

[Dale Hatfield]

Shoot For level. The 80 % is length and is good. the 20%  is max thickness as any thicker and barber chair /fiber pull will happen. Both % are based DBH. The % will have to be adjusted to species and location. As 20% will pull a bunch of fiber in Hickory
I pack a 5 # felling axe and are hard to find.  Smaller trees are hard to fell as their is little room for  error and wedges for lifting power.
You dont drive a wedge like a nail. Hit pause wait and then hit again. Driving like a nail will cause it to back out as vibration bounces back.

2 wedges side by side will help in a heavy lift. hit one then the other back and forth.
Buy a couple 10 inch wedges and a couple 12 . 8 inch wedges are mostly  a waste to me,too short too much taper.

[Kevin]

Dale;
When you say shoot for level do you mean a back cut that's level with the apex of the notch?
I stack wedges all the time in smaller trees with back lean because of the short driving distance to the hinge.
If they are popping out try drifting them across each other.

[Good Feller]

It looks like you are on the right track and that tree could have been easily wedged over.... All you had left was to drive it home.  The tree must have had a tad of back lean and that why it sat back on the wedges... That's ok though and that's what wedges are for.  Next time, as you pound in the wedges alternate back and forth and they'll go in easier.  I don't know about wood wedges but that's how it works with plastic.  Don't push a tree that has sat back with a dozer,,,, especially one with no ROPS/FOPS!!!!

You can't do it by the book everytime especially when you are just starting out.  If I had to be critical..... it looks like you:

Made the notch maybe a little too deep and not steep enough.  After you pull your notch wood out measure the stump width where the top and bottom cuts meet, it should be 80% of the diameter breast high of your tree.... That's the text book answer.   Also shoot for an angle of 70-90 degrees on the notch,, Your's looks like about a 45.

It doesn't look like you bore cut it.  Either way, your back cut looks ok and pretty level. Practice will make it more level.  Keep it within +/- 1" of where your two notch cuts meet. 

Your hinge does look thin.... and almost non existent on one side.  Your hinge thickness should be 10% of the trees dbh.  If you have a 10" tree we are talking a 1" hinge.  No thicker.  And some species you may find that you need to go less than 10% to prevent pulling splinters.  Don't let the splinters remaining on the stump reach more than 3" high.

So, the #1 thing I seen wrong is you didn't drive the wedges.... and you 'bout killed yourself on the dozer....

At age 60 you are probably one of those old stuborn guys that doesn't take advice....  If you do take advice,,, I'll tell you right now to sign up for a professional timber harvesting course.  It'll probably cost a couple hundred bucks but it's worth it if you enjoy living. 

If you are too stuborn for that.... take a night off and go here and learn a thing or two.  http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf

Learn to bore cut.  It is hands down the safest way to cut trees. 

[beenthere]

I guess Good Feller  didn't read the responses already given in this thread.  : :

Or if he did, he just wanted to say them all again in a more stern and condescending manner.

GF didn't have to be critical...we've been trying to not be critical of GF's green-horn approaches to Forestry. And to indicate someone is one of the stubborn guys that doesn't take advice, is a bit demeaning of us old guys, as well as a bit obnoxious.

GF...what is going on with you? 

[Good Feller]

   
Nope, I didn't read 'em.  I looked at the pictures and gave my 2 cents.  Anyhow, from the looks of it, it wouldn't hurt for this old timer to have the information repeated a time or two for safety. BUT what do I know?  I'm green.   

Beenthere,

I love you too!!!  It has been a while, did you miss me???  .  I see you still hold the position of Forestry Forum security....