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Started by primitivecustoms, February 22, 2009, 12:56:59 AM

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primitivecustoms

Hey guys,

I am a bit of a youtube fanatic and while I was surfing around from video to video on steam power in search of a way to economically run my sawmill I ran across some videos about Gengas.

In short, Gengas is an old process in which you created a system which generates hydrogen, methane and carbon monoxide gas from partially combusted wood chips.  It's a fairly easy system to build out of inexpensive and salvaged materials. It's not the greatest for a moving vehicle, though it was done,  but for a stationary engine it seems ideal.

Here is a link to an old F.E.M.A. pamphlet which breaks it all down including the plans for various horsepower engines.  http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/index.shtml

It is also known as woodgas and you can find quite a few videos on it by searching gengas or woodgas on youtube.

Here are the first two videos I ever watched on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsG32n_8oc&feature=channel_page   Just a large burner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzox3lW9zok&feature=channel_page   A lawn mover engine test.


There are many other videos on the subject and there is even a wiki page on the topic here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator


There are a few difficult parts like getting the chunks of wood the right size. The videos above use wood pellets. I have found wood pellet mills which create pellets for around 1500 and up. Of course for us the best possible fuel would be sawdust but I am told it doesn't travel through the system well since it is so light. I have considered using a slow turning auger bit to move it at a constant speed instead of using gravity.

Another concern is the removing the tar from the gas being burned in the engine so it doesn't gunk up the engine. I can think of many ways to do this better than the plans I have seen thus far.

I would be interested in hearing what you guys have to say about this very renewable and extremely inexpensive ( for us sawmills ) fuel source. Have you ever heard of it before? Anyone ever try it? Anyone interested in working on it together and if it works, helping others learn how to do it? Maybe even manufacture kits?

Not only would I love to run my mill with this, I sure wouldn't mind a generator for the house and shop power either!

Sincerely
DAve
If at first you don\'t succeed, slam it on the floor, kick it across the shop, blast it with a shotgun, tell the kids to cut it up for firewood and try try again.

TinMan

Dave

Interesting video. The sound on my computer doesn't work but I get the idea. Let us know how it works. ;D

Tracy

DanG

Hey Dave!  Check out this thread.  It tells all about member/admin Paul-H building a wood gasification unit to run a Ford truck. :) :)  Hang in there when reading.  It picks up some speed on page 3. ;)

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,11938.0.html
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

MaddiesDad

You're going to see slabs and sawdust over the next 5 years become incredibly valuable.  I know of a mill in New Mexico that was paid for (a new exspensive mill) from a grant because of Bio-Mass and some other uses.  Also Texas and Arizona seems to be leading this charge.

Meadows Miller

Gday

Dad Loves the Idea and Im Realy intrested in it we have a fair bit of info on the process of conversion the better systems run the gas through a Scrubber which is a simple  term fror just draging it through a water canister to remove any heavy particals from the gas  ;) :D ;D But I still ant gonna let him at my 671 Jimmy Yet  ;) :D we are gona try it on a petrol motor for the edger for a start as you need to modify the heads on deisel motors  to take spark plugs  ;) But I can see myself using it in the Future  ;D 8) once we get it worked out on a sacrafitial motor  first ;) :D ;D

Reguards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

bandmiller2

Dave,wood gas is doable and just plain interesting in a beat the system sort of way.One of those old international power units would be good for the gassifier you could have a dual fuel setup regular fuel and woodie gas.Wood gassification is one of my future projects probibly after I retire.It should be much easier as a stationary unit ,size won't matter.You have the perfect opertunity to educate all of us, set the mill up as usual then add the wood gas generator an interesring comparison, power, economy,ease of use.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

WH_Conley

To side track this thread slightly, could wood gas be used to replace propane? If so what would be involved as far as storage?
Bill

primitivecustoms

Glad to see so much interest in this topic.

I will be sure to read the other threads on this topic shortly.

I agree that wood chips and sawdust are about to become much more valuable. In fact, just about anything bio can be turned into fuel with a wood pellet mill. Consider creating wood gas from wood pellets made out of mixtures of manure, lawn clippings, tree trimmings, recycled paper and cardboard and so on.

I was thinking about building a scrubber to remove particulate as well and the water unit seems the best way to go in my opinion.

Since I have these older international gasoline engines, I am definitely going to be working on this process once my mill is up and running. We will run it with what we have at first which is gasoline and propane fueled engines but once the Mill is complete we will start experimenting with wood gas on the spare engine. Once we have it running reliably and consistently, we will change the operation over to full time wood gas. I will be documenting the entire process with youtube videos.

I am lucky to have a great mechanic working for me who retired from Caterpillar. So he is great with diesel but we won't be playing with that for a while since we are mostly looking for inexpensive ways to get into this hobby. If, and when,  it turns into more than a  hobby then we will invest a little more money into it and start thinking about converting diesel engines.

Once we have documented a unit running full time at the mill, we are going to start selling kits and finished units for others who would like to do the same.

For dual fuel, I have been thinking about a riser plate between the intake manifold and the carburetor such as is sometimes used with nitrous except with the ability to shut off either source. When using woodgas, the carb could be blocked off and when using the the gasoline carb, the woodgas intake could be closed. It doesn't seem like it woudl be very difficult to mill out of aluminum.

As for propane, I am unsure how you would store it since it woudl have to be pressurized and or liquefied. This is a use it as you go system in everything I have ever read about it. I think if you are wanting to power a house with this system, the best way to go would be fueling a generator, charging batteries, running as much on electricity as you can and then there is woodgas being created, burn it as is needed if you really have a desire to have a gas stove or water heater or so forth.

My main goal right now is to run my sawmill with this and then once that is working well, try to ad it to my topkick flatbed.  I have plans after that but then that gets into dreams and we can save that for later lol

Sincerely
DAve
If at first you don\'t succeed, slam it on the floor, kick it across the shop, blast it with a shotgun, tell the kids to cut it up for firewood and try try again.

Jeff

I think you will find through further research Dave that your original thought,

"It's not the greatest for a moving vehicle, though it was done,  but for a stationary engine it seems ideal. "

Is totally opposite.  Paul's wood burning truck thread offers the explanations to why this is so.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

pineywoods

hey Dave, you have found the right place. I'm collecting stuff, Radar67 is collecting stuff and we both are planning. Paul-H is a real expert, his wood-burning truck is really interesting. I've been researching for quite some time. That woodgas is just about impossible to store, it's mostly a make-it-on-demand situation. One possibility is using it to make ethanol or diesel fuel. The germans used that process to make gasoline from coal back in the late 30's. Google "fischer tropisch" . There's a chemical plant near me that uses the same process to make methanol from natural gas. From what I can find out, making diesel fuel from wood gas is do-able, but the pressures involved might be a bit risky for a backyard project. But a wood-burning sawmill powerplant project would be something I would be VERY interested in. Like DanG said, read the thread on Paul's wood burning truck and follow the numerous links. It's a real education...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Paul_H

Thanks Pineywoods but I'm no expert,just a enthusiastic woodgasser with practical experience. :)
I hope to use the woodgas truck to run the 4 sided planer someday.It has a 350 chev engine with a Quadrajet carb same as the truck so I should be able to drive up beside it and run the 2" hose over to connect.The problem will still be bridging so somebody will have to jump up and down on the tailgate once in awhile.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

bandmiller2

I have a reprint from Lindsey publications on producer gas engines.They say one horse power hour per 4 pounds of wood[sawdust&shavings].If so 10 hp engine 40 pounds of wood an hour.Paul H.how practical do you think a large stationary unit would be to run a circular mill??Would it be better to convert a gas or diesel engine??thanks Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Meadows Miller

Gday


From the info we have on it a Turbo Diesel is the way to go as you wont have the power loss that you get with Natrally Asperated motors which runns at the 20 to 30 % at peak load but with that being said I think if you went above what you needed in horsepower with a gas motor there should be no dramas  Mate ;) ;D
Ive also  got access to a 450 hp Turbo V8 Cat that im giving serious thought to setting up as a genset and running the mill of that  ;) ;D

Ive been thinking that as you have to start on gas or diesel for the first 5 to 10 minites it wouldnt be too hard to rig up a Automatic system that will alternate between the two fuels if there was any loss of power on woodgas  ;)

But the way i see it is that the only major problem would be keeping fuel up to the Gasifirer pretty much the same Issue I had with the PLC controlled feed on the two 800hp Boilers that i ran for steam on the kilns But they didnt shut themselves down on me tooo often only once or twice a day  which is ok if your there ;) :D The worst part was getting a phone call from a bloody computer at 2 or 3 in the morning saying Shut down iminent or Worse Shut down imminent Low feul which ment the shavins&sawdust had briged in the bloody hopper  Again :) :o ::) Id be thinkn i just loaded 50+ yards in there  a couple of hours ago   ;) :D :D :D But that took anywhere up to a couple of hours to fix  ::) ::)  :( >:( Good times tho  ;) :D :D ;D

Reguards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Paul_H

Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 24, 2009, 06:45:31 AM
how practical do you think a large stationary unit would be to run a circular mill? Would it be better to convert a gas or diesel engine?

Frank,

The problem with stationary units is the tendency for the fuel to bridge.There are shakers and scrapers to help overcome that but I don't know how effective they are.The problem with bridging is decreased gas production or poor gas quality (tar) and that can damage the engine.It's doable if you are close by and can monitor things. I can hear the engine fluctuate on my woodgas truck if it is parked at an idle for 5-10 minutes or longer.A good jump on the tailgate gets it running better again.Driving down the road takes care of this problem by the bumps and jars G-force from turning corners.

A diesel engine will run on woodgas but still needs a small amount of diesel to run the engine.If you read the thread we did on the woodburning truck,you'll see where Johan Linnel converted a diesel in a tractor to a spark ingnition to take advantage of the high compression engine.That engine runs on 100% woodgas.

If I wanted to convert a sawmill to run on woodgas,I'd come up with a satisfactory shaker system.The hard part is coming up with a suitable plan after pouring through all the information out there.It's time consuming.The fun part is building and running the system.

There is a unit for sale now that will produce fairly clean gas for engines up to 50 hp  :)

Meadows Miller,

in theory your ideas should work but in practice there are problems with the tar and particles that are in the woodgas stream.Tar can't be effectively filtered out and dirty gas will destroy a turbo in short order.I've been told that woodgas forced by a turbo has a notable increase of power but there are problems and dangers that come with it's use.
What you mentioned about a larger rated engine HP to compensate for the 30% power loss is the standard approach for woodgas engines.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

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