New guy building circular mill

primitivecustoms · February 19, 2009, 11:58:08 PM

Hey gang.
I'm DAve. Otherwise known as ScaryDAve.

I moved the the Ozarks of Missouri to be closer to my kids and have been learning to make a living in the country ever since. Since the area I live in now is completely infested with aromatic red cedar and old tools I decided to start building rustic cedar furniture. So far that's been goin pretty well but I was starting to get tired of carving my boards out with a chainsaw and started thinkin of this guy I met in montana who bought an old sawmill and rebuilt it to the point that he could start cutting custom lumber.

The more I thought about it, the more I wanted to do the same here.

I used to be a Hollywood special effects guy so I am pretty used to having to learn completely new stuff fast and so far I have been having some fun collecting the parts and information for my first saw mill.

Of course I got my big mistakes out of the way early. The first set of parts I found were a home made kant (SP?) mill of a spinning deathtrap hacked onto what I think may have been an old bent truck frame. Belt driven, two stations with flywheels and pulleys.

Instead of a carriage and tracks it has two scabbed together aluminum tables rolling on brake drums. One rolling past a 4' wheel of removable teeth which looks like it belongs in a B grade horror flick. I have dreams of two of these spinning out horizontally in front of my Topkick like speed racer for when I go to the city and hit traffic but that's a whole nuther problem of mine we won't get into here.

This first "sawmill" came with an international 6 cyl set for propane with an equally bent frame. Both, and I use the term very loosely, "trailers" came with completely mismatched wheels and flat tires. Each having sat in a field rusting for a few years.

The asking price was 1100 bucks but I worked out a deal where I just ran the guys rail fence splitter until the bill was paid off so all it really cost me was some time. Oh and it came with spare belts and a rather nice 36" blade with good teeth in it.

After reading as much as I could I decided that I really didn't want to try to build an actual mill around all of this mess and decided to use the pile as parts. After some searching on ebay and elsewhere, I finally found what I believe to be an old Corley 3 dog mill. Complete with 42' tracks, a carriage big enough for 20 ' logs. Two power plants ( I have no idea if they actually run) an edger of unknown origin and a Hall& Brown planer as big as my wife's car.

The price was good enough I just bought it sight unseen. The description was good enough and I have seen a picture of the planer. It's about 4 hours away so I am heading down Saturday to take measurements, photographs and get model numbers and any info I can to help identify the equipment. This way I can figure out how much will fit on my 24' flatbed and which friend I will have to bribe into following me with a goose neck trailer to get the planer.

My goal is to rebuild the entire set up right behind my shop and put up a low pole barn around it. I am surrounded by acres of red cedar and am even working a 200 acre cedar cut I have a contract for right now. So I know I have plenty of material to cut and plenty of other cutters to buy logs from if I ever run out.

I'll be posting pictures and youtube videos as I get this stuff together and I am looking for people who can help me identify the equipment and locate old printed material related to the pieces. I am also looking for sources for parts and accessories as well.

I am also interested in people who have experience in milling red cedar. Cutting, hauling, milling, drying, marketing, shipping. I am in this for the long haul so I am looking for as much education as possible.

For the minimal investment I have in this so far it's worth it just to mill lumber for my own furniture but I figure I can probably do pretty well shipping all this cedar around to places where it doesn't exist. I am shipping furniture around already so I might as well fill up the gaps on my truck with lumber and get more return from each trip right?

Well that's my story and I am stickin to it

The first time I saw the giant saw blade on that first spinning liability of a kant saw, I was hooked. Now I just wanna be knee deep in sawdust.

I posted some pictures of the kant mill and the planer. More to follow.

Greetings to everyone who got here before me.

Sincerely
DAve

Meadows Miller · February 20, 2009, 03:58:38 AM

Gday

And Welcome to the Forum Dave ;) ;D 8) You have come to the rite place mate ;D It looks like the bugs already bit if you have fallen in love with the Cedar ;) :D :D :D

It sounds like you have abit of work ahead of you with the amount of Trees/Logs :D you already have organised ;) The Corley with the extra gear sounds like you got a good buy there mate the other two mills should come in handy for raiding parts off ;) :D ;D

I look forward to your imput on the forum while you get the Corley Fired Upp ;) ;D Looks Like Us Circ Boys have Gained ourselves another Big Saw Fanatic ;) :D 8)

Reguards Chris

Ron Wenrich · February 20, 2009, 06:04:51 AM

You're going to have a learning curve. Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride. 8)

thecfarm · February 20, 2009, 07:20:22 AM

Welcome to the forum.I see you got the picture part worked out.I wish you luck with the saw set up.I'm no help to you,but just want to give you some encouragement on your trip.

bandmiller2 · February 20, 2009, 07:46:48 AM

Welcome Dave,first google the forest products lab. in madison wi.make a copy of "circular sawmills,and their efficient operation" by Lunstrum.Read it many times its almost everything you need to know.Corley is a good mill,what if any headsaw[blade]did you get with it??The first 36"saw you got is it inserted tooth and does it have the standard 2"arbor hole?Red cedar is usally small in diameter and a large headsaw is really not needed.Dave I'am not the sharpest tool in the shed but have set up two circlemills from a pile of junk and know what your up agenst.Use care in selecting your mill location if you have a choice.If you can block the prevailing winds and have it south faceing its nicer in the winter .If built on a side hill it helps handling logs,they can roll right on the mill.Before you start building travel around the countryside visiting mills.If you get the chance work with a sawyer on a small mill for a day offbearing you will learn alot and have a better idea how to set up your mill.Frank C.

bandmiller2 · February 20, 2009, 08:14:53 AM

Keep it scarydave not dangerousdave,theirs no "special effects blood"around a circle mill.I can't think of a bigger switch hollwood fluff to realworld logging and milling.Keep us posted neighbor. Frank C.

ErikC · February 20, 2009, 11:29:43 AM

Looks like you're in for a fun ride. ;) I like the style of furniture you make, let's have some more pictures of that along the way.

primitivecustoms · February 20, 2009, 01:19:05 PM

Thanks for the wonderful welcome guys.

I just received some new pictures of the new mill semi mocked up in a field so I will upload those in a few minutes.

I worked for a while splitting fence rails and learned a lot just from that. So the space I cleared for this new mill is on a slight hillside where I can roll the logs right off the truck and into the rack. I am planning on adding an air or hydraulic ram later so I can pick out one log off the rack while holding the others back.

It is also set up with one entire side facing south so I get get sun in the winter and the north side is shaded by trees so I can get some shade in the summer. I already learned that one the hard way last summer.

I will probably ad some sort of safety rail to the system so I can people as far from the blade as possible. I'll have to run it a bit first to see where I can add rail. I am also considering a cage around the pulleys and belts an so on. Once again, have to see how that goes and where I can add what.

In the pictures you can see it's all set up on wood. I am pretty sure I am going to replace as much wood with I-beams as possible. Lucky for me, steel prices are at an all time low right now so hopefully that will work out. It seems like a steel set up would require much less adjustment over time and keep my quality control nice and tight.

I am planning on buying some concrete tubes to poor as the feet and then sink large all thread into those so I can then adjust the I-beam base up and down on those bolts whenever I need to. I want to have as much room to adjust as I can get. I also want to make it as easy as possible to relocate in case I outgrow my space.

There is no zoning here but there are a few houses within 1/4 mile or so in various directions and if I turn into a full time, 6 days a week mill I will prolly want to move it to a more remote location so the neighbors and I don't have to hear it running all the time.

As for the learning curve, I am ready to go. Thanks for the advice on the book. I'll make it my new mantra. Back in Hollywood my department was one of the few which wasn't just fluff. We built some crazy stuff. Lot's of welding, hydraulics, heavy equipment, explosives and dangerous stuff that would rip limbs off in a blink. I rarely dealt with fake blood or any of that. That kinda stuff was the makeup department. We made things move, jump, smash, explode, crush, drop, shake, rattle and roll

For instance consider making a machine which held a full size Chevy pickup truck by the nose and then flipped it lengthwise. over and smashed it into the roof and then back. Over and over and over lol.

I still have all my fingers and limbs and no major injuries. Sure there was that time they almost blew my head off with a cannon and that time they dropped a car on me and the time I got shot up with blank wadding from M-16s or the times my hair caught on fire but that was just all in a days work. So I got good at ducking, dumping wiping up my blood and shaved my head !

Well thanks again and I am always lookin forward to learning more.
Pictures on the way.

Sincerely
DAve

Kelvin · February 20, 2009, 01:58:28 PM

Well its ambitious. Do your products sell well? I started at the wrong end when i started my sawmill business. I was interested in the mechanics and thought the product would sell itself if priced right and done well. It seems to be a lot harder for me then that, though certain areas in the country are a lot easier to market to. I'm in michigan and we've been in a recession for a whole lot longer than most of the country. The big 3 have been shuttering plants here for 20 years now. They're just going to go a lot faster now. We've had double digit unemployement for quite awhile compared to the rest of the country.

You'll find lots of old sawmill equipment for sale pretty cheaply, mostly for the cost of scrap metal. Getting them running and tuned up takes some time and most folks don't want to spend that. The planer looks like it might be old enough to have square heads (dangerous, but heck so are circular mills!) and babbit bearings. It can be made to run fine, and might have been in use recently if you are lucky.

If it were me i'd work backwards from my products i needed and buy the equipment necessary to make that. I often run down rabbit tracks when i see a piece of equipment cheap thinking "man i could make some stuff with that" without thinking whether people want what i could make. Its hereditary in my family.

I thought about buying one of those old circular mills, as there are lots around me for cheap, but decided the safety aspect wasn't worth the savings. I have friends help me with the bandmill and am not worried about them. I've worked on circular rigs and was scared stiff the whole time, and not just for me but everyone there. Insurance companies also nail you good for any sawmill. After i saw my neighbors hand who sawed it in 1/2 with his circular mill (which he still runs) i decided one accident like that was worth spending a little more to find a used bandmill. THere are a lot of them on the market these days as well and a very good time to buy. The big difference in my current mill is log handling. The older circular mills are all manual w/ cant hooks, but maybe cedar doesn't require much turning like grade sawing hardwoods.

Well hope your setup goes together well, and try make that mill as safe as possible. 36" blade will help, but there are setups that lend themselves to safer operations.

Best of luck.
Kelvin

bandmiller2 · February 20, 2009, 03:28:58 PM

DAve,sounds like you've done your homework,hard to tell what a fella knows by one post.Their is a wealth of info about circular mills in past posts,you can use the search button or just thumb through.There are not alot of books written about sawing,guess writers aren't sawyers and sawyers aren't writers.Frank C.

primitivecustoms · February 20, 2009, 07:59:56 PM

Yeah I am flipping through old posts on here and other places trying to learn as much as I can. I am sure that, as I go, my questions will get more and more specific.

As for my furniture, it does sell quite well but I am also in a very depressed area. One of the poorest places in the country. We do get tourists here though because of the lake and also, because of the lake there are quite a few retirement homes built here by people who have money. So the economy here is somewhat deceiving.

MY plan is to market my furniture to places like Los Angeles and along or near I-40 since I still have a place out there. Places around LA like Malibu, Agua Dulce, Ventura an so on are the best places for my stuff. If it's a beach community or horse property, then there is money and western style to market to. My wife also has a lot of ties in tourist areas in Wi. So I will prolly be takin stuff up there as well. Although it's out of the way, I would love to get my stuff up to Montana. I used to live up there and it is very well suited for my kind of work.

I think the trick to rustic furniture is don't do what the big factories do and find a market where there is money and people who appreciate the style. I also tool leather so I can mix my leather working or wood carving skills with my furniture to help it sell for higher prices than some of my competitors.

As for the circular sawmill vs band saw mills, there is always the obvious cost consideration and I could certainly just build my own band saw mill without much problem and for a lot less than buying a ready made one but I just don't really have any desire to run one. I am much more interested in owning and running an operation which looks, sounds and feels a hundred years old. If I had my druthers, I'd run it on steam but that is just cost prohibitive at this point.

My main interest in this mill is simply to supply myself with the ability to create my own cedar slabs and lumber to the huge dimension I want to build with. I am also building a log cabin out of cedar about 50 yards from the location of the mill so I'll be running all my butt and pass logs through it. Not to mention the floors, the ceilings and so on. The goal is a company which feels as primitive as the products I offer. I want the mill to reflect that old time feel so that when I start holding classes on how to build rustic furniture, the students can get an eye full of history while they are here.

I have finally acquired most of the tooling to build the bulk of the products I am going to offer. The last items are the mill and some sanding and grinding equipment. Even after all is said and done the mill is gonna end up costing less what it cost me to set up my leather shop. To me that's a pretty good deal. Beats the hell outta 3-15 grand for a band saw mill which won't impress my tourists at all.

As for dangerous tools, come on, all tools are as dangerous as the person wielding them. I personally love anything which is huge, dangerous and fun. At 45 years old, I spent 30 years on motorcycles in Los Angeles. May years of illegal road racing in cars and on bikes, I repossessed cars, been shot at, lived in gang infested neighborhoods, jumped, chased with knives, chased with cars, I been hit on bikes by over 20 cars. Twice head on. The second time I landed standing up. I could go on for many more paragraphs but it would just sound more like bragging than it already does. The important thing is a healthy understanding about how all things relate to each other. How to spot dangerous situations and how to deal with them as the arise and survival is pretty doable. I have only ever broken one bone and that was my thumb when I ripped a side view mirror out of a Cadillac with my hand while flying past it after it hit me head on at a combined speed of around a hundred.

Life is a giant risk and I have already been dead twice. Still, it wasn't my guns, or power tools or explosives or hot rod rattle traps or fast choppers or special effects jobs or bein a repo man in Compton and watts the week of the LA riots that killed me. It was a freakin trip to Mc Donalds that took me out! lol Well ok, let's say it was quite a few trips over many years. hehe

So now that I have already been dead the rest of this ride is nuthin but gravy. So, I am gonna keep havin a good time and a giant spinning wheel of jagged toothed death roaring in my back yard like a metal monster which wants to tear me limb from limb is right up my alley > : ) Besides, even if it wins once in a while, I would look pretty good with an eye patch, a peg leg and a hook for a hand. It would all go very well with the bald head, the 200 tattoos, the giant ear rings and the parrot! Arrrrrrrr

hehehe

So I ain't yer average lumber jack. I was still raised in a lumber town in Oregon in the 60's and 70's. All the guys I looked up to as a kid, worked with chainsaws, circular mills and built slab wood furniture. So now my kids get to see me doin the same things. Why let history die when it's so easy to just keep it spinnin?

Sincerely
DAve

MaddiesDad · February 21, 2009, 09:53:46 PM

Am I seeing that right? Is that husk frame made of wood?

beenthere · February 21, 2009, 10:22:56 PM

I think you are seeing it right. Pretty traditional, I believe.

Ron Wenrich · February 21, 2009, 11:20:53 PM

The wood looks like its in pretty good shape. With a good foundation, it looks like it should cut some pretty decent lumber. I started out on a mill very similar to that one, and have run several others like it.

I've also sawed some cabin logs. Slabbing off 2 opposite sides will give you a nice effect, and make things easier to lay together. I also have sawn some 3 sided logs. They left the round part on the outside, and made a flat side for the interior walls.

primitivecustoms · February 22, 2009, 12:04:46 AM

Yup, I just went to inspect all the parts today and set the appointment to pick it up next weekend. The husk frame is wood as is most of the frame. From what I have read it's very traditional for a "portable" sawmill from that era.

I nabbed all sorts of new pictures today but I'll have to edit them for size an such before I post them so it may be a day or two. When I pick up the gear I'll video the trip and the load an so on and post it all to youtube.

As I rebuild this setup I am going to replace as much of the wood with I-bean as I can. I am hoping this will require less adjustments over time than the traditional wood frame requirements I have read about.

The tracks are definitely going onto I-beams. Either purchased new or if I can find an old frame from a mobile home I may salvage the steel from there. I am planning on setting it all up on concrete pillars with set in bolts and adjustment nuts. I cleared a space on the slight slope with the in coming side slightly higher than the other so gravity will feed the logs from the trucks to the rack and carriage as much as possible.

Rebuilding the husk frame out of steel may be more challenging but it is the ultimate goal. The shaft which houses the cable drum for powering the carriage back and forth is the wrong size for the bearings in this husk so it looks as though it's from a different mill and that the correct one is missing. If anyone knows a source of old Corley sawmill parts my ears are open ! The gear seems workable though so when I rebuild the husk I could just use this shaft and drum with new bearings. I would prefer to go original though.

The setup came with two power plants, one international 6cyl and one Alison-Chomsky (SP?) 4cyl. My mechanic says they are both good. Each came with bell housings, clutches and belt pulleys. I already have one good International 6cyl powerplant so seems like power is no problem.

The tracks are 1 1/2 inch tall railroad shaped tracks. About 1 1/2 inch across the base as well. A friend said he thinks they are "9 gauge"? They look like tracks I have seen scale steam engine models run on. I would be very interested in finding a source for those tracks. One is missing and one is slightly bowed. They are held down with large nails into the wood frame and I am open for ideas on how to mount them onto a steel frame.

The carriage is in pretty good shape less one broken piece of strap which I can duplicate on my forge and a wheel with some chunks missing from the side. The wheel still works fine but I would be interested in finding a source to replace it. If for no other reason than to make it look better and prevent it from cracking further.

The carriage has three dogs each with 30 inches of horizontal travel marked out on the cast iron pieces along with the name Corley from Tn. I am very interested in finding information on how to identify the model and year of this equipment and locate any kind of printed material referring to it. I took many man pictures of each piece of equipment. There are a few letters and numbers here like "D" and "45" anyone with info about this would be greatly appreciated if they were to send me in the right direction.

The Hall & Brown planer has square heads, Babbett bearings, cuts four sides at once, cast iron frame, huge and seized from weather. My mechanic seemed very confidant that he can have it running with minimal effort though. He has always been right before so I am hoping he is right again. I had heard there were ways to update the square cutting heads over to round. Anyone have any thoughts or info there?

It came with quite a bit of belt material but the saw, the husk, the blower, the re saw and the planer all run at once off of one power plant at the same time so I would be very interested in finding a good source for belt material to make sure I have enough for all of those requirements.

Also I am going to pressure wash and possibly sand blast a lot of this as I go. Anyone have any recommendations on paint to make it look new and black again? I am sure whatever is being used on old farm equipment and steam engine restorations would be perfect for this. I am going to be showing this off in videos and up close in classes and demonstrations so I would like to make it look as good as possible while still keeping it looking as original as I can.

Well more pictures and some video coming shortly.

Thanks for lettin me hang with you guys

Sincerely
DAve

Meadows Miller · February 22, 2009, 01:28:29 AM

Gday Dave

Your Well On the Rite Track Mate ;) ;D 8) For Your type of work you could do a staged build Like i am just starting with my grandfathers Meadows ;) You can start with the Carriage and get it running well for a start then do up and install the other gear as you go mate

With the Mill No# i think you have a Corley D model built in 1945 Mate ;) ;D ;D 8)

With the track i Thin 12lb rail was the common one used on most commercial mills for years Im coming up against the problem of there being no supplyers of it in Aust so im going with Hi tensile 1x1 square bar its alot cheaper and getting the carraige wheels remachined to suit at a mates place ;) With fixing the track to the frame you can just weld it to it but you will have to make sure its Dead Strait you can just run it to a peice of piano wire or a string line blocked out the same at each end then use a touch block to check the distance as you go along welding the rail down just wach out for Weld pull as your going tho mate ;) ;D
I beams and heavy Channel section is the way to go Itll out last you Mate ;) ;D :D ;)

Im using 12 x 3 Channel for my husk but ill have it alittle easy'r as im building my own Hyd feedworks for my mill ;D ;D 8)

Piers are the way to go like you said you will put a length of allthred in as well to tie the mill down to . Its probobly the best way to go apart from putting it on a concrete slab mate ;) ;D
You can also just build timber platforms on which i find more comfterble to work on than cocrete It will also give your costomers the feel of an older mill ;) ;D 8)especialy since i had a huge car accedent at 18 and stuffed up the hole rh side of my body and crushed my right leg from the hip down and hate working on concrete floors now so i have an idea where Your coming from Mate ;) :D ;D ;)

Power isnt your problem Mate ;) ;D 8) Id sett up the best RED powerplant to runn the Headsaw then the 4 cyl on the Edger and the other 6 on the planer that would save you alot of mucking around with setting up belts and pulleys and make things alot safer for you and your crew Mate ;) ;D 8)

When I stripped the old carriage down and rebuilt Her i just wire wheeld everything back and sprayed it with std auto paint as ill be using Desiel fuel on my dogs and settworks for lubrication Its a Sawmill so itll be gettin dirty anyway mate ;) ;D :D
Its pretty easy to pull down a carriage my one only to me about 8 hours from start to finnish the longest part was waiting for the bloody paint to dry ;) :D ;D ;)

With the headsaw if it has any cracks in it Just hang it on the wall and get anew or Reconditiond saw the best way to find out for sure is to Wirewheel it down and take it to a saw doctor and get it checked out also get a box or two of Bits and a new set of shanks while your there mate ;) ;D 8)

With The planer you can convert them without too much dramas to round heads ive helped do up a couple of old 50s and 60s Jonsered/Robinson 4 head planers in the past at mills ive worked at Just convert the bearings to self allining ball bearings as they runn alot cooler and smoother also convert the mill to these if you can for the same reason Mate

Also with the cleaning I used my 3500 psi Pressure washer with a cat pump and a turbo laser head it got almost everything off another techniqe is to put stripper on and leave it awhile and you can take it back to bare metal in one hit ive done that on heaps of things over the years 40' trailers tractors and other heavy equipment and it works a treat ;) ;D 8) 8)

Good Luck We are all behind you Mate

Reguards Chris

Ron Wenrich · February 22, 2009, 07:00:37 AM

Corley is still in business. The mills have changed, but they probably know where to get those parts for their older mills. Here's their website: http://www.corleymfg.com/

Lots of guys have put their tracks on steel. Most of the ones I have seen have welded them in place. But, you have to be a pretty good welder, as the heat can draw them out of line.

Your foundation must keep the husk from moving. That is the anchor to the whole operation. Most of those older ones are put on a wood beam that extends past the tracks. The tracks are then fastened down. Your critical part of the operation happens where the wood meets the saw. You don't want any movement at that point.

The most important rail is the guide rail. The mills I have seen have one guide rail and one flat rail. The guide rail keeps the mill going in a straight line. Old mills, like yours, have them on the side closest to the saw. Problems arise when bark or dust gets on the tracks. You'll have to make sure you have some track cleaners on your carriage. We have several threads concerning them here on the forum and it isn't a big problem.

One thing to consider on mill location is to keep the mill high enough so that you can clean out from underneath without too much hassle. You'll be having lots of dirt collect underneath your mill over time.

Are you planning to have someone help you when you're sawing? You will need some sort of dead rolls to act as a work table and to push lumber and slabs forward. You should have a floor with 2 different work areas. One behind the saw, and one ahead of the saw. The height of your work at the saw should hit you about mid thigh. On the floor side should hit about the waist. It will lessen back pain and fatigue.

For the most part, mills rarely run their planer, edger and mill all at the same time. I would think about a separate area for the planer and run that with its own power unit. That way you don't have your saws running when you're planing.

Flat belt probably can be gotten at an ag supply store. Its possible to get it at a sawmill supply shop. You may want to find one.

You also want to find out what type of saw you have. Some of those old ones you can't find teeth or shanks for. On the shank (that's the thing that holds the tooth in place), there should be either letters or numbers stamped into it. When you find those, you'll have a better idea if the saw needs replaced or not.

I also noticed that you don't have a saw guide on there. That's extremely important, as you'll be eating saw or log without one. Are there some parts missing? You should also have a saw wrench for taking the saw off and a tool for taking out the saw teeth.

bandmiller2 · February 22, 2009, 07:44:40 AM

Dave its good the mill is still togather,the measurements of the wood frame are important even if your setting it up steel,also the husk track relationship.Your guide track rail if you are short could be used on the guide side and flat side could be made up from common steel.Old cast iron is almost forever best thing to clean it for paint,as Chris says,is a cup wire wheel mounted on a small grinder.Your headsaw looks OK a little rust means little,clean a shank and tell us the numbers or letters.Steel is best but wood works too what I did on my mill is made up a steel carrage with wood for the ways.The hardest thing is to try to rebuild a mill from just a pile of parts.Frank C.