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Argo vs atv with tracks

Started by shtickhead, February 19, 2009, 08:23:41 PM

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shtickhead

Hi, I've been doing some reading here, I see some people use atvs and some argos for small scale logging /bush managment.I'm looking for opinions pros/cons.
Most of the time it would be used in the winter to get across swamps with varing snow depth,there are some steep areas.
I will be making a Quebecnewf pylon skidding cone and wrapping a chain around the logs to bring them down hill. Ofcourse where the going is easy it's mostly 12"-20"
cedar and balsam and in the steep parts 12"-20" maple and oak that I want to bring out.There are afew 24" plus spruce and poplar but I'm not sure what size/weight(hard wood/soft wood) I can hope to skid without busting light equipment.This is not a major money making proposition but I'm not looking to lose money either.
Thanks   

chevytaHOE5674

Argo's are slow and somewhat hard on terrain like grass. An ATV with tracks will be able to go through more snow, and make faster turns. IMO

Also the ATV can be used for more than just slow speed monkeying.

shtickhead

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on February 19, 2009, 09:28:58 PM
Argo's are slow and somewhat hard on terrain like grass. An ATV with tracks will be able to go through more snow, and make faster turns. IMO
[/quote

What I'm wondering is if the argo's greater pulling power makes up for the speed difference. Can I bring out three times as much at half the speed,am I going to spend half the day winching myself off of stumps and rocks.On down hills could I just snug the cone up to the back of an argo as opposed to worry about knocking tracks off of an atv?

chevytaHOE5674

From what I've seen argos do not have a great pulling capacity on rough terrain. On good hard flat ground they can pull a bit, but in the offroad  rough terrain the capacity goes way down.

Kevin

Argos are useless on pulling loads uphill because of the weight distribution factor but they will pull if you load them down.
They are good in deep snow and wet swampy conditions, have good cargo capacity and are easy to steer.
I've been stopped but I've never been stuck.


shtickhead

Kevin, Thanks for the info. that looks like a good size log in that pic.
Is the arch on skiis,is it home made,if so what did you use for skis?
Looks like you're on a lake there, can you pull a log like that on any kind of grade?
You mention loading to pull up hill,do you add weight to the front of the machine some how?
Scott.

Kevin

Yes, this arch is on skis.
The skis are made here at a steel fabricating shop and are used for sleighs.
It was home made by a local retired welder.
Those pine logs were a heavy pull and I did have trouble getting up the bank on shore.
We needed four people in the Argo to pull those logs.
Ok on a flat lake but not much more.
For pulling up hill I have chains and can load lumber on the rack for added weight.


Kevin


Kevin


moonhill

Kevin, is the next to last photo "just stopped"?   I have always thought if I can get out on my own I was not stuck, if a tug is needed that was stuck. 

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Kevin

That's stopped.
You can see the front is heavy with the engine weight so the machine will back out onto the ice.



You'll never wet your pants in an Argo.  ;D

shtickhead

Hi Kevin, do you know what guage/thickness the skis are?
When you say you have chains for up hill,do you mean chains that go around the track? Do you think if the arch was longer so you could get more weight on the hitch it would help?
thanks,
Scott.

Kevin

I just bolted some chain across the tracks.



Anything that adds weight should help.
I know I can load the rack with lumber and that helps.
I have logs at the bottom of the hill now, if the Argo can't bring them up then I'll load them on a sleigh and skid the sleigh up using the capstan winch.
The skis are  1/16" - 1/8" in thickness.

shtickhead

Kevin, thanks for the info. one last question(for now) do you know how the 8 wheel argos compare with the 6 wheel for skidding?

Has anyone used an atv with tracks for skidding?

Does anyone have plans for an arch that converts from wheels to skis?

Harvey

Shtickhead

                    I have a friend he has a Honda Foreman 450,  he uses tracks.  We skidded 12 - 14" maple logs,  10 - 12'  long,  across a lake with ease.  Not sure how it would do on a slope.,  would also depend on the size of the ATV.

Harvey
For every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

Ironwood

Cool pics, thanks.

One of my clients has an Argo, but I have never seen it move. They have 6-7 Gators, and 2 six wheel Rangers as well as a Goldini articulated 4x4 side AND rear dumping bed( way cool).

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Kevin

I've considered the eight wheel model but the shorter wheel base is easier to move around between the trees when you are off the trail.
Weight is the big issue for skidding with the Argo, the eight wheel models are heavier but they also have that extra set of wheels which displaces that added weight.
I kidded logs up the hill yesterday and the first few times went good then the tracks started spinning near the top of the hill where it became iced up.
It was frozen rock hard and was a sheet of ice in two locations on the hill when I finally quit later in the day.
The winch assisted with the pull when the tracks couldn't grab and it wasn't a huge problem considering I only skid  logs at that location once a year.
There's about four more to bring up and if we get a little snow by next weekend it will improve the hill for skidding what's left.


This is a picture taken a couple of years ago of Giver Hell Hill.



Kevin

This is a company that is experimenting with a new track design for the Argo.

http://www.escargotracks.com/video.html

rebocardo

> I can hope to skid without busting light equipment.

I started using Ford Bronco IIs to pull out firewood through a swampy area in winter when the big rigs could not. That was 7 years ago. I think they are excellent little getters, I have two of them for my urban tree work.

The best set up if you are not taking it on the road is to put low speed argi or bobcat type tires on it.

Even with regular mud tires on it, no chains, properly deflated, many times pulling through deep snow I would not even engage 4x4 because they are so perfectly balanced (52/48) they hardly ever get stuck like a pick up does and light enough so they do not sink into powder like a bigger rig.

Not the same as an ATV for sure, but, in Maine I use to take mine down ATV trails with no problems. Plus, I had a full frame for winches, hooks, and receivers, and something has to be said for staying warm while working and being able to carry all your gear including spare winter clothing that you can change into, inside a nice warm cab.

If you work a long day and have installed reclining seats, a short 1 hour nap (engine off of course) mid day is something you can't really do in an ATV.

Being able to plug in a small 12v heater with fan helps dries the gloves is another bonus.

Best combo is 4x4 with manual hubs, manual transmission, lockers front and rear, LT235 or   31" tires, 5K winch in front, receiver in back for the skid cable hookup. Total cost would be about   $2500.

Because they are so light, you can get by easy with a 5K winch. When I skid logs I use 1/4" steel cable. I have towed a 6" Veermer chipper into a wooded area to chip slash left behind by a "free" tree removal company, I really do not think a ATV or Argo could handle that.

Every once in a while I think about buying a 4x4 ATV and then I get to thinking if I go somewhere that would tip my B2 over or sink it, I probably shouldn't go there with an ATV either.

The biggest draw back to me for an ATV is I carry a lot of stuff, especially in winter, and it simply would not be practical to carry it all on an ATV. Plus, the fact, when it is 10-25 degrees out, I want a place to warm up with my hot coffee.

shtickhead

Quote from: rebocardo on February 24, 2009, 12:06:01 AM
> I can hope to skid without busting light equipment.

The best set up if you are not taking it on the road is to put low speed argi or bobcat type tires on it.

If you work a long day and have installed reclining seats, a short 1 hour nap (engine off of course) mid day is something you can't really do in an ATV.



Aren't those tires alot smaller,wouldn't you be losing alot of clearence?

20 minutes is a short nap, one hour is better. Change of socks, thermos of soup,warmth of the sun, there's no better place to take a nap than in the bush(well maybe on a sail boat but the water is pretty hard here now)

I'm thinking now maybe I should make the F150 I was going to scrap into a bush truck. I know it's alot bigger and heavier than a bronco but I've already got it and I'll be using it in my bush so with chains , diff. locks and a 8,000lb winch if I get it stuck it can stay there until spring.

rebocardo

> Aren't those tires alot smaller,wouldn't you be losing alot of clearence?

Regarding the Bobcat, the key word was "type", you can get them from Denman in just about any size you want. Though 31s are just about the best size for that little V-6 to turn and still get some speed for clearing.

http://www.denmantire.com/

Check out ditch digger and omni-trax in 31s x 15

They no longer sell Ground Hawgs, Interco makes them now. Denman use to have them available in both Bobcat and trucks sizes, best of all, the directional tread could be studded and runs a close 2nd in traction to Boggers in mud. The good thing is they wear very well and you can use them on the road when icy.

Well, for a F-150 with lockers the most you want to run is 33s, though in deep snow/slush/swamp you really need a 14" wide tire aired down otherwise the heavy front end might snow plow.

One of the best things is a winch in the bed. Sooner or later I am going to find a way to mount a rear winch on my B2.



isawlogs


  How steep and how long are the grades , I know that Sprucebunny has tracks on her atv's and she could tell you about those . Personaly, I would like the argo , it will move more and carry more and will be as fast as an atv in the snow . I think Kevin's set-up is way cool and would one day want that very set-up , low impact and very useful machine , cut a few limbs and lay them in that swamps and you would be quite surprise At the floatability of the argo . I have a friend with one , he uses a trailer with duals that have a track on them to haul his wood , and rarely does he have to winch himself out .
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

sprucebunny

The atv with tracks pulls great and a logging arch makes it even easier to drag logs in. I've towed trailers weighing over 3500 pounds on dirt trails.

The most limiting factor for either machine is the amount and type of snow and the condition of your trails. These last 2 winters we have had a lot of snow and I've either had equipment malfunctions or been too busy digging out to pack my trails where i want to cut logs . If the trails haven't been packed after each foot of snow, getting a good base to work on will be difficult.

The Argo with tracks might have an edge in getting thru the deep snow because of a lower psi weight but the tracks will lack traction in deep snow because of the lower psi weight . I'd give the edge to the Argo with Kevin's chain setup in icy conditions, also, as the tracks I have are not studable.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Kevin

One of the probems I have is with the trail on my hill not being straight.
Because the Argo is a skid steer I have to brake on the corner at the bottom of the hill and in doing so I lose momentum in hauling the load up the hill.

sprucebunny

My atv has a low range and Armstrong steering. No problem with power on a hill up to a certain weight or traction limit. Going down hills can be interesting... A braking system on your load would be good sometimes.

With any machine there will be a point where you lose traction and that point depends on both the snow conditions and the weight of the machine, track type and power available. Lots of compromises to be made.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

shtickhead

Quote from: isawlogs on February 26, 2009, 08:54:17 AM

  How steep and how long are the grades , I know that Sprucebunny has tracks on her atv's and she could tell you about those . Personaly, I would like the argo,"


Mostly downhill,that's why I'm worried about running logs into the tracks on an ATV. Some trails have a couple of gullys 30*-45*(I'm guessing) the bigger one I would be pulling up 50-60' of elevation with 20-30' of give 'er (level) at the bottom. 

Kevin

I had a friend working with me today, here's a video of him hauling a sixteen foot cedar log twenty inches on the butt up the hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OX0J2Ovhw

Coon

I have just purchased an old Attex 6x6 that  I will be building into a small logging unit.  I have plans on tearing this unit down and putting in a real frame to which I can put a blade and a decent hitch to use.  As of right now the Attex only has a 16hp Tecumseh on it for power but willl be changed out as well for a bit more hp.  I will also be looking at building a set of tracks for the unit.  I have a homemade logging arch I can use but the skids are more often than not too long.  To resolve this problem I am building a small grapple trailer like those sold at Bailey's. 

I like your little set up Kevin.  How many horse power is your Argo?
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Kevin

The model I have is the Conquest , 620cc, 20HP.
That ATV with the tracks has no problem with the hill but it's a brute to steer.

slowzuki

My best advice is decide if you want to pack trails, then decide how much weight you need to pull, then decide what to pull it with.

My tractor and winch on beat down skid trails will pull an amazing amount, but once the belly starts dragging snow I'm soon stuck.  A cheap snowmobile can beat trails down faster than anything.

I just bought a 4wd atv for use on the farm and firewood hauling.  It won't pull anything like the tractor but its faster and a lot more nimble.  It too won't move in snow once the belly drags.

My favorite option would be a like Bombardier J-5 with a winch on it but thats not in the cards.

moonhill

http://www.argoatv.com/utility/recdetailvehicles.aspx?x=mRszmDaRcsOkWZIHXxzNzOviWdqn9zqO#specdetails

The Argo Centaur is a larger and heavier unit.  It appears to be able to handle a small self loader in tow.  Or a arch as well.  All the comforts of a Bronco II, I bet is still comes with a larger cost though.  A nice little 3 cylinder diesel.  Someone said they were slow, 38mph, not bad. 

I somehow keep returning to these types of machines, smaller, agile, capable of the work to a certain point in relation to the true skidders out there.  I have done my fair share of 4 wheeling with trucks and atv's, I know the limits.  These alternative machine seem to fit a nitch I am trying to fill.

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Kevin

The only problem with the Centaur for my purpose is it isn't amphibious.


BARPINCHER

I talked to the Argo rep about a Centaur this spring and he told me they were amphibious.  They also stared at $42,000 dollars so that put a quick end to our conversation.........
Serving hunters and the hunted with science based; non-traditional resouce management methods

Kevin

Thanks barpincher, they don't list it as being amphibious on their web site like they do the argo.

Reddog

Quote from: Kevin on January 01, 2010, 06:33:07 PM
The only problem with the Centaur for my purpose is it isn't amphibious.

The ones I have seen set up for water crossing, had plastic barrels lashed to the front for flotation. Makes me wonder if it is not as balanced as the Argo in the water.

Kevin

It might be that it's top heavy.

Kevin

Here's the proof ...

http://www.atvargo.com/centaur_amphib.htm


Quote from: BARPINCHER on January 01, 2010, 07:55:44 PM
I talked to the Argo rep about a Centaur this spring and he told me they were amphibious.  They also stared at $42,000 dollars so that put a quick end to our conversation.........

Ironwood

Boy, those are neat machines for the niche use. You northerners w/ snow/ ice / half frozen lakes/ peat bogs sure would use one. They mention flood use, at 3 mph that would make me nervous, (30 mph) water  ::) that would net you -28  :o I guess you need the outboard engine.

My heavier crawler would NOT suit you folks, (not much floatation) but for my latitude it's perfect. 

All these small machines, ATV's included have their place in a modern utility use. It just depends on the scale of the job and speed at which it neede accomplished.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

moonhill

At $42,000 that is just a little more than a set of tracks for my tractor. 

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Kevin

I bought a plow for my argo this year, want to see if it will push logs around at the landing.
It should.  hurt_smiley

Ironwood

I thought of plowing w/ my crawler, I need to figure out if I can drive lag bolts thru parts of hte tracks w/ out messing them up. I need side stability and ICE traction. I have a 9' power angle blade that would be great for the machine.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

BARPINCHER

I have a friend in Wisc that has a Kawasaki Mule with tracks and it is awesome.  Anybody else see  a UTV with tracks.  I realize its no ARGO in floatability but it may have the extra weight plus suspension to make skidding logs a bit better than a regular ATV on tracks
Serving hunters and the hunted with science based; non-traditional resouce management methods

motohed

Quote from: Kevin on February 22, 2009, 10:04:50 AM
This is a company that is experimenting with a new track design for the Argo.

http://www.escargotracks.com/video.html

Hi Kevin
Those are really cool track set ups , I have thought about getting an Argo for a long time . I guess they are pretty expensive . I may have to look at one , one of these days . I am sure there are decent used ones in the USA .

Kevin

They are expensive but I get dual use from it.
It skids logs and get's me and my gear into the bush any time of year.
I also use it for hunting in the fall.
The area that I'm in is a cedar swamp, the forcat would work but for the money the argo was the better option for me.
I can even pull my LT-15 all year around.

moonhill

Kevin, if the cost were comparable which direction would you have gone?  The Argo centaur vs the forcat with the diesel engine?

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

Kevin

For logging operations only I would buy the forcat but I don't do enough to warrant the expense.
The argo is more versatile and has a heated cab.

John_Haylow

Quote from: BARPINCHER on January 02, 2010, 09:17:50 PM
I have a friend in Wisc that has a Kawasaki Mule with tracks and it is awesome.  Anybody else see  a UTV with tracks.  I realize its no ARGO in floatability but it may have the extra weight plus suspension to make skidding logs a bit better than a regular ATV on tracks

We just had tracks installed on a Yamaha Rhino UTV last week at work.We are still experimenting with it, but so far so good. I will try and get some pictures of it.
John
2004 Wood-Mizer LT40HDG28

Sliver

What about a bombardier sw48???? roughly 100hp 4-5000lbs heated cab 8) and take the pontoons off the screwdrive machine to make it float!! :D :D


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