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British & French SSNs collide in deep sea . . . .

Started by TexasTimbers, February 16, 2009, 12:16:59 PM

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TexasTimbers

Scuttlebutt is, the French were so eager to surrender they nearly flooded their sub trying to get a white flag out before reaching the surface.  ;D

Sub Story
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

beenthere

The side comment (joke?) bit rough for our French FF members.... ::) ::)
(if we have any)

But interesting news story.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

TexasTimbers

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

oakiemac

I just read about this incident. As a former submariner, this is pretty scary stuff. It wouldnt take much of a collision to sink a sub.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

submarinesailor

Having spent a long time in the US Submarine service, I can see how this can happen.  The number one thing to remember is that France, the UK and the US have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on making them very, very quite.

Back on my first submarine, over 30 years ago, we had the opportunity to play games with the first Ohio class boat.  We would just coming out of the shipyard so we had all the latest and greatest that went on the older boats with a good sonar crew.  The Ohio picked us up at over 3000 yards, but we could not get her until they were at less than 300 yards.  Man she was quiet!!!  BTW, one thing that was set ahead of time for this exercise, their ceiling was 350 feet and our floor was 250 feet.

That was over 30 years ago and you can take my word for it, they have gotten a whole lot quieter.  So, I can see how they could not hear each other.  Particularly if they were going slow.  The boats are awfully quiet when they are going slow.

What I don't under stand is why they were in the same area of the ocean.  With the US boats, they each have a box that they operate in and no one but no one is allowed in that box.  I wonder if our operational folks at Commander Submarines Atlantic talks to their counter parts on the other side of the pond just to keep this for happen.

If you guys have any questions about this, let me know and I will let you know if I hear anything on the side.

Bruce

sawguy21

Would they not 'see' each other on sonar (assuming both had them turned on)?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Tom

They would only "see" one another if they were running active sonar.    Active is when you ping and listen for the echo.    Passive is when your transducer is quieted and all you are doing is listening to the sea noises.  Subs run around in Passive mode most of the time.
Tom STG3 (sonar technician general)

zopi

Six Toed Goober.

I'm eating dinner next to one.

Couldn't open the story but I hope all those guys.. (even Grenouille (sp?)) are ok.

Ping Jockeys are fun to mess with.
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

TexasTimbers

Quote from: zopi on February 17, 2009, 07:57:12 AM
Couldn't open the story but I hope all those guys.. (even Grenouille (sp?)) are ok.

Telegraph.co.uk
By Caroline Gammell and Thomas Harding
Last Updated: 4:13PM GMT 16 Feb 2009
HMS Vanguard and Le Triomphant were both damaged in the deep underwater crash in the middle of the Atlantic, which is expected to cost up to £50 million in repairs.
Dents and scrapes were clearly visible on each submarine, while the French vessel completely destroyed its sonar dome in the incident which took place in heavy seas on the night of February 3 and 4.
The Vanguard, Britain's first Trident class submarine, returned to Faslane on the Clyde on Saturday, while Le Triomphant took three days to get home to L'Ile Longue, near Brest in north west France.
Investigations were launched on both sides of the Channel as the two countries tried to work out how such a seemingly simple error could have been made.
Although both are fitted with state-of-the-art technology aimed at detecting other submarines, it appears neither saw the other until it was too late.
One theory being considered was that their respective anti-sonar devices - which hide submarines - were just too effective in concealing one from the other.
Only two people out of a 135-strong crew on a nuclear Trident submarine such as Vanguard know the precise location of the vessel, the captain and the navigator.
A senior British submariner source said: "We are embarrassed about this but let's see what the inquiry shows."
First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Jonathan Band said the submarines collided at low speed.
"Two submerged SSBN, one French and the other UK, were conducting routine national patrols in the Atlantic Ocean," he said.
"Recently, the two submarines came into contact at very low speed. Both submarines remained safe and no injuries occurred.
"We can confirm that the capability remained unaffected and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."
A French naval source said the £50 million figure for repairs was "conservative" and would be met by the French and British taxpayer.
The badly damaged sonar dome should have detected the Vanguard but Le Triomphant's crew of 101 claimed to have "neither saw nor heard anything".
A French naval spokesman said: "The collision did not result in injuries among the crew and did not jeopardise nuclear security at any moment."
Kate Hudson, from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said the collision could have unleashed a radioactive disaster: "This is a nuclear nightmare of the highest order.
"The collision of two submarines, both with nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons onboard, could have released vast amounts of radiation and scattered scores of nuclear warheads across the seabed.
"This is the most severe incident involving a nuclear submarine since the sinking of the Kursk and the first time since the Cold War that two nuclear-armed subs are known to have collided."
The Kursk sank in 2000 with the loss of its entire 118-man crew.
Miss Hudson called on the Government to bring an end to its policy of deploying at least one nuclear submarine at sea at all times.
SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson demanded a Government statement into what went wrong.
"The UK Ministry of Defence needs to explain how it is possible for a submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction to collide with another submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction in the middle of the world's second-largest ocean."
Liberal Democrat defence spokesman Nick Harvey called for an internal inquiry with the partial publication of its conclusions to reassure the public.
"Now that this incident is public knowledge, the people of Britain, France and the rest of the world need to be reassured this can never happen again and that lessons are being learned."
Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, Dr Liam Fox, said the crash showed the inherent danger of military operations.
"For two submarines to collide whilst apparently unaware of each other's presence is extremely worrying.
"Hopefully lessons have been learned to prevent anything like this ever happening again in the future."
The UK submarine service has been badly undermanned for some time with technicians in particular shortage.
The Vanguard, which went into operation in 1994, is one of Britain's four nuclear-powered submarines. Alongside Le Triomphant, it is capable of carrying up to 16 nuclear-armed Trident missiles.
A senior naval officer said: "Manning in the submarine service is in a parlous state and is recognised by the Navy Board as a serious risk to the maintenance of the strategic deterrent and the nuclear submarine service.
"At the moment is it not a pretty picture and I am not convinced it will get better in the short term."
Shortages are particularly evident among Warfare Officers and in the Strategic Weapons Systems department.

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Tom

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson demanded a Government statement into what went wrong.
"The UK Ministry of Defence needs to explain how it is possible for a submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction to collide with another submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction in the middle of the world's second-largest ocean."


Because the crews are taught that they are to go undetected, you nimwit!  What do you think War is all about, ringing bells and taking pictures?


"For two submarines to collide whilst apparently unaware of each other's presence is extremely worrying.
"Hopefully lessons have been learned to prevent anything like this ever happening again in the future."


Why don't you just DE-educate your crews and tell them that silence in the "Silent Service" is only for the movies.

What a bunch of ignorant, politically oriented politicians.  Sheesh!  They should be congratulating the crews for doing such a good job and spend some more of their precious tax money on better detection gear.  What's wrong with people that run for public office anyway?!  Is it a genetic thing that they be so dumb?

The Ping Jockey :D

TexasTimbers

Tom, I am not sure, but it sounds like you are being critical of people in general, and politicians in particular. Now I am not being accusatory!!!  nosirree!!! I don't mean to come across wrong or incorrect or offensive or anything other than Politically Correct (I think Goebbels coined that phrase), and I am not saying anything untoward, toward Floridians in general, nor you in particular. Nossirree!

Just making an innocent observation that possibly you may have allowed a slip of the tongue and possibly could maybe, potentially offend someone.  :o  I'm not saying you did! Nosirree Bob Tom! That would be very aggressive. Possibly even cajoling.  :o

Just looking out for my brother future cell mate in the detention camps and letting you know you may have come across a little harsh toward our British brethren.  smiley_British_jack

In this day and age we can't afford to use any kind of humor, buffoonery,  friendly banter, and sarcasm is right out (to cop a phrase from the blokes).   I'm not being accusatory! No sirree! Not me! I am totally PC. You darn tootin'!

Heaven's ta murgatroy I hope I didn't offend the French again.  :P
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Slabs

Tom

I'll call your "politically oriented politician" and raise you two dimwit military spokesmen.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

submarinesailor

Talked with a couple of people today and still don't have any more info.

Bruce

zopi

Been watching the wire here...nothing else...

Port Royal on the other hand......OOOPS...

Guy that works for me, his dad is some mucky muck in the shipyards out there....sonar dome is hosed, and three blades on two screws
broken off...

Remember...don't text and drive!
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

jander3

Riding the subs in the 80s, was pretty sure we were sinking one time...and not on purpose...had to change my pants after that one.

submarinesailor

Ok, I got a little more info today.  If I understand it right, it could be possible it the French boat got what we call a "sniff" of the Brit and turned towards the sound.  It was probably the Brit's screws.  Because, the French boat ran bow first into the Brits screws, breaking off 3 blades on 2 screws.  You know, I don't think any of the modern boats had twin screws???

Don't know if any of this is correct.  Haven't been able to hear anything from my real good sources.

Bruce

TexasTimbers

Brits drive on the left, French on the right. You don't suppose . . . . .  ;D



Here's a video that is sort of on topic for this but too funny to pass up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQBNMT9318A
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

TexasTimbers

Quote from: submarinesailor on February 19, 2009, 06:50:27 PM. . . the French boat got what we call a "sniff" of the Brit and turned towards the sound. 

Who boy, I missed this before. Even a Coastie like me knows missile subs on deterrant runs don't hunt. Turning into an unkown and un-ranged "sniff" is a tactical and safety no-no.  Missle boat SOP is to turn away from the potential threat, and quietly analyze as they slip . . . . . away. Missle boats engage only as a matter of survival. SSBN commanders have this drilled into them relentlessly. They are the ultimate capital warships.

Even if the Frenchies were working with the brits on an op, safety rules had to be violated because even NATO uses depth seperation.

The next story on this will be the COC .... but it will probably not make headlines. "Silent" service and all.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

rowerwet

You would all be surprised how many surface ships run into each other in good weather and clear visibility each month, running blind and trying to hear the other guy it doesn't surprise me that they collide every now and then. My pastor was a sonar guy on a missile boat and they would try to get a sniff on other subs whenever they could. His favorite story was coming out of california and finding a ruskie on thier tail, they radioed back to base and got three fast attack subs to surround the ruskie and all played "yellow submarine" on the hydrophone at the same time just to let him know they were there.
Husky 460, Fiskars x27, X7

TexasTimbers

I read this book when it first came out. Best sub book I ever read. You can't put it down once you start.


Blind Man's Bluff
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

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