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froe fun

Started by FrankLad, February 02, 2009, 09:22:16 AM

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FrankLad

Hey guys!

I'd been doing a little research on froes and riving by searching online and in books.  One of the old Foxfire books in particular, which devotes several pages to the subject, has been a big help.

What really pushed my interest was watching Roy Underhill's online videos (Thanks, Mr. Jim!  I've been watching one each day after work now.  Ha ha!).  In one episode he had a guy on there that makes old-timey 'Bible Boxes'.  Seeing them get a nice, straight board from an oak round - using simple hand tools - really got my attention.  Then he went on to explain how he would build with it immediately, not worrying about letting it season, because the wood cut that way is very very stable.  I had read before about wood being cut on the "ray plane", but never really understood what that meant, exactly.  (Still have LOTS to learn!)  I see now the appeal of quarter sawn and wood processed via riving, because it is really attractive.

After a bit of searching around, I finally found an antique store that had a froe.  Well, at least the head.  The guy asked $28 for it, which I thought was fine since that would keep me from spending $70 or so online.

I still had a few hickory saplings that had been drying for a while, so I made the handle out of that - carving the end to fit the froe head, and driving a wedge in from the opposite side.  The mallet is also hickory - but very crude (since I don't have that foot-powerd lathe built yet.  ;-) ).

We had just done a bit of thinning out this past week so I had a fresh red oak to try this on.  I took a section above the swell of the roots and below the lower limbs and that was my first test piece.  I was really pleased with the whole process.  Granted, by the time I cut the pith and sap from the "bolts", I had skinny little boards.  :-)  But they were pretty!  I found myself trying out various other pieces as well - even pine, eventually.
Some pieces were smaller (6" or <) so I didn't quarter and follow the ray plane 'cause that wouldn't have left a lot of wood.  So I simply cut/rived/slabbed off opposite sides, leaving two live edges.  I would then finish them off with a hatchet (TODO:  find a scrub plane)  I'm figuring on building a table out of joined pieces like this eventually and I want to see how they act as they dry.

The number one thing I've learned from the process is that the quality and straightness of the board is determined by the tree.

Anyhow...  I'm working on ideas to build my boys a little hideout/fort and I want to make a shake roof.  I can get cypress rounds from the guy that sold us our cypress timbers, but I wanted to see what you guys thought about using other species.  As I understand, wood that has been rived is inherently more resistant by how it is split along the grain (less open pores on the face of the board, correct?) but even still - how long would, say, red oak shakes be expected to last?  Also, we don't have access to a lot of cedar.  Mainly pine, hickory, red oak and water oak around our place.

Being that it's not as permanent as a house or workshop, I think we could get by, but I'd like something to last at least a few years.

Thanks for any advice you guys can give!

...and thanks for letting me share some of this stuff as I learn!

:-)

pineywoods

I don't think red oak would last too well. When I was just a kid, almost everyones house had a wood shingle roof. cypress was the wood of choice. surprisingly, pine holds up well. Biggest problem with either was fire. All houses had wood stoves and fireplaces. One spark is all it takes to light off cypress or pine shingles. Another common use was riven pickets for fences. They were usually pine.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Dodgy Loner

Red oak is actually the traditional wood for shakes in the southern Appalachians.  You can expect 20 good years out of it.  White oak is more rot-resistant, with an average lifespan of about 30 years, but it is harder to split.  I used white oak for the little log cabin that I built.  Cypress and pine were both common choices nearer to the coast, with cypress being superior.  Pine will still last more than a decade, though.  One thing to keep in mind: cypress usually splits better if you split it tangentially - at a right angle to the rays.  Oak, of course, should be split radially.  Your job will be much easier if you take the time to build a riving break.  Oh, and when I first got a froe, I put in the handle the same way you did, wedging it in like an axe handle.  This will quickly come loose.  I soon found out that the traditional way to do it is to carve a piece of hickory with a taper on one end to match the taper in the froe's head.  You slide in the handle all the way in.  This way, you don't need wedges, and the more you hit the froe, the tighter the head gets.  It's the same way an adze head is fitted, if you've used one of those.  Good luck and have fun with it!  Post some pictures of your work if you get a chance :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

FrankLad

Working in the insurance business, I've noticed that our carriers won't accept houses with shake roofs (or they surcharge a hefty amount).
But those types of roofs are about the prettiest I know of, especially after they weather a while.

The guy who runs the cypress sawmill said I'm welcome to come up and get as many of the butt pieces I want.  He said they are around 2' and under in length, and pretty large in diameter.  He sells them by the truckload for twenty bucks.  I'm thinking I may be able to get some usable pieces from some of that.

Interesting to hear of the pine lasting longer than the red oak.




Dodgy Loner

One more quick thought: the longevity of your shakes will be greatly affected by the amount of overlap.  Most shake roofs in my area were cut 24" long and left 8" of reveal, so only 1/3 of the shake is exposed to the weather.  I used 24" shakes with 6" of reveal, so only 1/4 of the shake is exposed.  Only time will tell if this is an improvement or not.  As far as nails go, I ended up using galvanized ring-shank nails with rubber gaskets.  Cut nails won't have the same tendency to split, but they will rust a lot faster.  I didn't have too much problems with splitting using the round nails.  I suspect that if you use cypress instead of oak, the nailing will be even easier!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

FrankLad

Dodgy:  Thanks for the info on the various wood species!

Appreciate the tip about the handles!  I do have an old foot adze but I've never really studied the way the handle was fitted.  I'll take a look at it when I get home, to see how it was joined.

Thanks for the tip on the overlap!  That is something I wasn't quite sure on.

Also... just thinking out loud - but using strapping should help the longevity as well, right, giving them a bit more breathability?  (I was thinking of putting some type of plywood and tarpaper down, then putting strapping with the shakes on top of that.)


kfhines

Skip the plywood and felt! Deck the roof with rough cut 1x's spacing as required for the exposure you want on the shingles. This will solve your ventilation issues and save you a few bucks. If the shingles have the chance to dry inside and out they should last a very long time. Sounds like fun!
For what its worth that's my .02$
kfhines

Fla._Deadheader


When I lived in the Ozarks, the old timers said Water Oak was the wood of choice for shingles. Usually had the straight grain, and split very easily. Read a book one time, stating the same thing.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Dodgy Loner

I agree with kfhines - since it's just a hideout for the kids, I would just skip the plywood and tarpaper.  The shakes will last longer.  If you do use sheathing, the strapping should improve the breathability.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

FrankLad

I think skipping the sheathing makes a lot more sense.  Thanks for the recommendation, guys!

Fla._Deadheader:  I have some water oak around that I can try.  I'm trying the froe on everything else anyway!  Ha ha!  It is a lot more fun that I thought it would be.  :-)




FrankLad


Is it possible... or rather, feasible to process timbers into clapboard siding using nothing more than a froe, brake, and maybe adze (for finishing)?

This would also be for the little hideout, so we aren't talking about a whole lot of wood.  I'd really like to get some 1" or so slabs that can be simply overlapped with the bottom (visible) part being live edge / waney (but with bark removed) so we get those natural curves of the wood.  These would be fairly narrow-width boards because that's what's available and I imagine working anything over 8 or 10 inches with a froe would get pretty cumbersome.

These would be split similar to how wood is standard flatsawn, since the wood wouldn't be near big enough to quarter and process how you would do shakes.

I see the difficult part being riving all the way through a long board, maintaining thickness without running out too thin too soon, even when taking care to switch the direction of twist on the froe.

I hope that makes sense.   :D




pineywoods

riving boards with a froe..... I've never done it, but most of the old log homes and barns in this area used split half logs to get a somewhat smooth interior wall, then riven boards about 1X4 nailed over the cracks on the inside.. No chinking..From what grandpa told me, the most critical thing is log selection. Has to be absolutely straight grain, no knots. Should be something that splits easily, ie don't try elm or sweet gum. Start at the small end..The longest I recall seeing was probably 16 ft, but the most common was 6 ft fence pickets...
Sounds like my kind of project, another one of them "I wonder if I can do that" things  ;D
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Dodgy Loner

Frank, not only is it possible to split clapboard siding with a froe, that's the way clapboard siding originally came about.  The tapered cross-section of clapboard siding was a result of the way the boards were split radially with the froe, which just so happened to be ideal for overlapping the boards.  I think you will have great difficulty splitting clapboards tangentially, but if it's possible, I suspect cypress would be an ideal candidate.  Traditional clapboard siding would be riven from 5-6' sections of very large, very clear oak.  It's more important that the wood be clear than large, however.  I strongly recommend that you pick up some of Roy Underhill's books, which go into great detail about how clapboard siding is riven and how to select your wood.  I believe "The Woodwright's Companion" and "The Woodwright's Workbook" would be the most helpful to you, but all of his books seem to run together in my mind (but that's ok, because they're all very good :)).  They can be had for very reasonable prices on Amazon.com.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

FrankLad

Thanks for the information, guys!

@ Dodgy Loner: I basically 'discovered' Roy Underhill only a few weeks ago.  I know it's a shame - he's been on the air something like 20 years or more, right?  Jim shared a link to one of Roy's videos (It was in the thread with the saw sharpening discussion) and I've since been watching one from the archive every day after I get home from work.

I've already added the Roy Underhill books you mention, along with a David Pye book, to my Amazon wish list.  I also have a couple of others, specifically related to green woodworking.  We'll be ordering those here in a few weeks or so.  I'm really looking forward to getting them!

@ pineywoods:  I'm having a lot of those "wonder if I can do that" moments lately.  HA HA!  I'll only share the ones here with the least potential at me being laughed at.  :D  That's interesting about the 1x4 / no-chinking method.  I had not heard of that until now.







Dodgy Loner

Careful when you start reading those Roy Underhill books.  It's best not to even open the box from Amazon if you have pressing deadlines at work, children's soccer games to attend, or anniversary presents to buy for the wife.  Wait for a lazy Sunday afternoon when you can spend the whole day with your nose buried in a book.  Roy really is one of the finest authors I know of, it's just an extra bonus that he writes about stuff that I'm interested in ;D.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

shinnlinger

Would it make any sense to dip the shake in some kind of preservative???
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Dodgy Loner

I think proper ventilation of the shakes to allow them to dry quickly is more important and safer than any preservative.  A boric acid treatment might ward off some of the fungi and will be relatively safe, but properly installed shakes made from a suitable species will still last as long as asphalt shingles.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

thedeeredude

IIRC, Roy is planning on opening a woodworking school in North Carolina. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)  More info, did some googling, it will be in Pittsboro, NC opening this year sometime with hoffman and hammer workbenches. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

http://www.highlandwoodworking-blog.com/weblog/archives/2008/12/roy_underhill_chooses_our_hoff.html

FrankLad

thedeeredude: Glad to hear Roy is still educating.  Those are some nice workbenches!

Dodgy:  You were right about the froe handle.  I noticed yesterday that the handle has started slipping back through the froe head a little.  It was far from coming out, but I could tell it had given at least 1/4" or so.

Granted, these past few days I've been working that froe "like a government mule", as dad would say.

Found a red oak that had the top broken off, but was still alive, as evidenced by some sprouts/shoots at the top.  Cut a section toward the middle and was able to get two thick slabs and some pieces for chair legs.  Those are drying on the porch for the time being.  Spotted another in similar condition that I plan on cutting and splitting today after work.

On another note... I've noticed a lot of dogwood that has been on the ground no telling how long (well, most likely around 4 years) and the wood seems just as sound as can be.  The bark on these pieces has long fallen off and the wood itself has some really nice character.  The fact that they had some weight to them is what got my attention first.  (To me that's a good first-indication of whether or not the wood is usable.)  Tried the "hit-it-against-another-tree-and-see-if-it-breaks" test and all the pieces passed.  Cut some with a handsaw and they were pretty hard.  Interesting.





peter nap

This is from Colonial Williamsburg a few months ago. These two were making shingles (13000 of them) for a timber frame they were putting up. They'd split them out and when they had a pile, taper them with their draw knives. The shavings were 3 feet deep.


FrankLad

Thanks for sharing this, Peter!

Wow... 13,000 shingles.  And look at those shavings! 

Jim_Rogers

Quote
  And look at those shavings! 

Definitely a no smoking area, for sure......
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

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