The Boy Scouts Of America

[Trax]

This has little to do with logging and everything to do with the Hearst newspaper group not agreeing with the boys Scouts beliefs. I can't believe that they would actually print this BS make sure you go to the comment area and leave your opinion of this paper and it's story http://timesunion.com/specialreports/boyscouts/

[Jeff]

Looks to me like the general public ain't so maliciously informed after all after reading many of the comments that are already there. I think they might even form a good old hearst paper lynching.

[timberfaller390]

I aquired the rank of Eagle Scout at age 17. I am not going to read all of that story becaue it will probably cause me to lose my temper.  I wish people would learn to mind thier own *DanG business. The land is thier's, they own it hell deep and heaven high and if they want to sell the timber to raise money then more power to them.

[Gary_C]

What a piece of trash tabloid journalism and like Jeff said they are catching it from the commenters. I did not add anything to the comments because then they know someone is paying attention. Controversy is their goal.

If they would look where I work, they would find that the eagles are sure threatened, but by the cars going past them while they are eating road kill deer. The blame should go to the DOT since they will not even drag the carcases into the ditch where they could eat with relative safety.   

But the real shocker was the part where the Scouts logged one 12 acre site and got $140,000 in these poor markets. Should make every landowner in the area say "who paid you that much, cause I've got some I'd sell for that."  8)

[Sawyerfortyish]

I was involved in a selective timber harvest on boy scout land that turned into a nightmare. With out going into a big long story. We were asked by a scout master to look over about 600 acres for a selective timber harvest. We marked 800 trees on 600 acres made a deal paid half upfront and started cutting. About 2 weeks past and I get a visit from a state park ranger. He says stop you gotta call this #. So we went back to the mill and sitting there is a state forest ranger that I know very well. He says are you cutting the scout camp. I say yes He said well you need to stop that land was given to the scouts in the 50's from the state for 1.00. and in the deed there is an easment for timber it's very vague but there. So I call the scoutmaster and tell him what I was told he says he will take care of things. So a couple weeks go by and I'm told by the scoutmaster to go ahead start cutting. So we did and again got stopped by rangers. To make a long story shorter the scouts was aware of the timber clause in the deed and there lawyers thought they could get around it. So for 2 years everyone gave me the runaround. In the meantime I heard from my ranger friend the scouts have sold half of the land my timber was on back to the state. So I was forced to file a lawsuit against the boy scouts to get my money back. In the end I did get my money back and this ordeal has left me with a bad image of boy scout leaders.

[Phorester]

TRAX, I left my comment there this morning.

[Tom]

Sawyerfortish:

In the end I did get my money back and this ordeal has left me with a bad image of boy scout leaders.

Your story and feelings will go a long way towards helping Hearsts Newspapers, and their contributers, do away with The Boy Scouts of America.  The best place to tell that story would be on that Times Union link given in the first post.  With the outcry that is going on, The Anti-Boy Scout crowd needs all the help they can get.  Anything you can think of, from the homosexual arguement, girls in the Boy Scouts to cutting trees would probably be useful.  They've tried it all but just can't always get the backing they need.

[Jeff]

Tom, I dont understand that post. Sawyerfortyish tells us about a first hand negative experience with an honest statement about leaving a bad taste in his mouth.  I have the same sort of thing with Habitat for Humanity after the fiasco of the 2000 ornament auction and the way the Michigan HFH people that were in charge screwed things up royal.  I won't ever donate my time to them and I wont help their cause because of what was to me, a very negative experience. That being said, I am not condemning the program, just the fact that at the time the people with the powers to be were in my mind idiots. So, they tainted me. There. I've said it. To steal a phrase:

In the end this ordeal has left me with a bad image of Habitat for Humanity Leaders.

[metalspinner]

I have been with the scouts for just three years and lots of things have frustrated me.  But, I've come to realize that most of the folks in scouting are all volunteers with different levels of commitment to getting the job done.  I am pedal to the metal and others are out for a nice walk in the park. :D

Now, if I had a professional relationship with them and had to deal with the "volunteerism," I would be more than a little frustrated and can understand sawyerfortyish's nightmare.  But I would certainly not have trusted the scoutmasters second "Go ahead" after he screwed up the first one.  Unfortunately, some folks in scouts think they can get away with stuff just because they are the "Scouts."  When in reality, we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard than what is expected.

For those that are just looking for a fight and want to take us out they can take a long walk on a short bridge for all I care. :

[Tom]

I thought the post was rather clear. There's two sides to every arguement and opinions may count when you publish them in the right place.  So, if someone is providing their opinion to cause me to waver in mine, then there are two organizations at risk here.  As I could give two hoots about Habitat for Humanity, I dont give it a second thought.  I see no reason to offer a countering opinion to the first post in the thread other than to declare yourself to be on the other side of the arguement. Those with anti-BSA opinions on that link could use all the support they can gather. 

Personally, I'm for the BSA and don't support anyone who supports those who dredge up years of bad press with the outcome possibly being the demise of the organization.

[Jeff]

Understanding possible underlying causes can sometimes facilitate a cure. Declaring there is no middle ground only serves to place another's views that don't completely align with one's own views as that of a foe. That's creating opposition not garnering support.

[Engineer]

I knew there had to be a reason why the Times Union was nicknamed the "Times Useless". 

Our District has ten acres of land that was deeded to the Scouts in the late 1920's, but the trustees of the land are the Scout leaders from the local troops only.  It was logged about three years ago to pay legal fees in a lawsuit against some neighbors who were outright stealing the Scout land, gradually over time.  It worked out bad for all parties, as far as I know.  The Scouts were left with a piece of property that won't have harvestable timber again for at least 60 years (it was cut that heavily), the logger left an absolute mess, and the neighbors still got some of the land due to statute of limitations on squatter's rights running out.  We are spending a lot of time up there with crews of Scouts and volunteers, trying to clean up the mess the logger left, and it will be a never-ending process.  We'll probably give up because it will be too rotten to salvage in another 3-4 years. 

I do know (being a Scoutmaster myself and having two boys who are Life Scouts) that BSA is always looking for funds.  They have a tarnished reputation which does not bode well for charity, and today's electronic age makes interest in Scouting at an all-time low.  I have had several kids cycle in and out of the troop because they thought that they would immediately be able to "shoot guns and throw axes" (not kidding here).  I don't know what the future of Scouts is but I applaud those troops and Councils who can log their land in a sustainable manner and teach good environmental and forestry practices to boot.  Even clear-cutting is an acceptable management practice sometimes and these kids and the public need to be educated about it.

[DanG]

I read the entire article, and it was an obvious attempt to smear the Boy Scouts by people who constantly undermine this Country and all it stands for.  I thought it significant that the Hearst group went to the trouble and expense to hire their own carefully selected "Environmental Biologist" to say whatever they wanted said.  The BSA stands in support of clean morals and personal responsibility, and I stand in support of them.

I also read all of the comments in the little forum, and found that the only one in support of the article was some guy that left the organization because of the Gay Rights issue.  It is my feeling that gay people do have rights, just like anybody else.  And just like everybody else, their rights end where another person's rights begin.  They have the right to do whatever they want to with other consenting adults, but they do not have the right to force their way into a childrens organization against the will of those children's parents.  I stand in support of those parent's right to exclude them.

I'll not criticize anyone here for their feelings about any organizations, but for my own part I can't afford to lose respect for a group because of the actions of a few of their members.  If I did, I'd soon run out of groups to respect, including this one. ;)

[Jeff]

Not one person here so far said they had lost respect for any organization that I could see, including me in my example for comparison. But why shouldn't someone be able to post on this thread about their real life experience with logging associated with Boy Scouts when this thread was started about an article about logging and the Boy Scouts? Anybody that takes the time to read that dribble that paper calls news can see it for what it is, where were lucky to have here, members that can tell us like it really is. Good or bad but real and unbiased and without agenda.

[Engineer]

I am almost certain that the Wood-Mizer crew from NY (Dave Scott & co.) occasionally saws logs for the Scouts in NY to use in constructing new cabins and lean-tos.  I will be doing the same thing for our District using Scout logs from Scout land. 

[Tom]

Now I don't understand your post.  No one has been told that they shouldn't, shouldn't have or can't post their opinion on this thread.

[Jeff]

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I read the wrong thing from between the wrong lines.  I still don't understand but that ain't new either.

[Tom]

OK       

[Sawyerfortyish]

I'm not condeming all the BSA. Just the couple bad apples I had to deal with. They really really need to practice what they preach something about loyalty,honesty,trustworty bla bla bla they were not.

[Woolywolf]

Speaking of practice what they preach, how many trees have fallen to provide paper for newspapers?

And another thing: For some species, clear cutting is the best and only method for regeneration.  It mimics natural disturbances like fire or hurricanes.  If we would have clear cut stands of Atlantic White Cedar, there might be a lot more of it around right now.  Now, we have stands of red maple because AWC counldn't regenerate in selectively cut over stands.  It can't tolerate shade.

Clear cuts, like wildfires, may not look pretty, but both serve an ecological purpose. 

[DanG]

Right on Woolywolf!  Your understanding is the same as mine.  What seems to be happening with these folks that spout off about forestry issues, is that they usually have no idea of what it takes to cause trees to grow.  All they have is that they heard somebody say that they heard a friend say that a friend said that they heard some Marxist professor say that clearcutting is bad, so they are against it.  Since they have such great information to base their opinions on, they feel thoroughly justified in using any tactics it may require to enforce these opinions that are based solely on political rhetoric.  I have yet to find a single one of these pinheads that can offer a shred of scientific evidence to support their position, and believe me, I ask every one of them I run across!

I'm interested in your interest in Atlantic White Cedar.  It is one of my favorite woods to saw and use, but my knowledge of the trees is woefully inadequate.  I'd be glad to hear anything else you may be able to share about it.

[Phorester]

Been involved in both Cub and Boy  Scouts as a leader for about 20 years now.  Also been on the Council training staff for about 10.  I've also seen bad leaders, seen badly handled situations between Scouts and a leader that should never have happened.  The bad ones don't seem to last long.  Some quit, others are asked to leave.  But they do last long enough to put a bad taste in the mouths of both boys and their parents about Scouting and that's a shame. 

Scout leadership is like every other organization.  There are bad members and good members, both volunteers and the professsional staff.  But basing your opinions of an entire organization on just your personal experiences with a few members of that organization is unfair and can lead to a wrong perception.  I will continue to support them; I realize that the failings of a few are not indicative of the entire Scout organizaiton.

Interesting that the values of Scouting are the same values that allow these newspapers that are attacking them to exist.

[cheyenne]

I have never seen it fail yet. You can take any non profit or do gooder assoc & there will always be some idiots that screw it up. The best intentions in the world can't compete with mans stupidity. It's an ego thing for some people. I've seen it to many times. They get on a power trip and the people who are supposed to benifit from the associations goodness & intentions are the only ones that suffer. This is exactly why I got out of the ones I used to belong to.....Cheyenne

[Ironwood]

I have just gotten involved in Scouting w/ my 6 year old. I have a buddy in Ohio who has been a SERIOUS supporter for years, decades. He is on numerous Boards and give tens of thousands of dollars and "in kind" steel work to the Camps in his area. Sometimes proper Organizational Mgmt practice will dictate sales of various resources, property, timber, etc... All Non Profits need funding streams.
As for Habitat, they are a VERY unique organization, no organizational hierachy. It is quite amazing, each Habitat can do as it pleases w/ little or no oversight from ANYONE. Really the name can just used fairly easily by a  local group of people chosing to start one. I have had experience w/ a Habitat affecting the Non-profit (Construction Junction) I do organizational volunteer work in Pittsburgh. I find myself qualifying the bizzar nature of lack of infastructure in the Habitat model w/ other members of the Board frequently. It is BIZZAR!

Go Scouting, and the principles they stand for. ;)

           Ironwood

[WILDSAWMILL]

i been a scout scence 1968 eagle in 76
10 years as scout master
2 years as district training chairman
3 years OA adviser
5 years certified camp chaplain
etc etc

you meet all kinds of volunteers with all kinds of ajendias
the bad ones never stay more then 3 or 4 years

the rest of us keep telling ourselfs
"its all for the boys"
thats what matters to provide a life experence that will enrichen a childs life
so that some day that child as an adult will put in the time for the next generation
they told me its only 1&1/2 hours &a week one weekend a month
but the clincher is they were there for you now you are needed for the younger & weaker
as an eagle scout i was unable to say no. my son is an eagle & he will be there for the next generation i am sure

[Tom]

Thankyou for your tenacity, indulgence and generosity, wildsawmill.  There will be a Star in your crown.

[urbanlumberinc]

Hearst is in the business of selling papers, not smearing the Boy Scouts.  I don't know all of the facts, as I'm sure few here do, so I'll reserve judgement.  I will say this though:  If the scouts are guilty of anything, first and foremost it's poor P.R. work.  If they're truly doing something that meets their own ethical standards, and is environmentally sensitive, and conservation minded, they sure did a poor job of presenting that picture to the public and the media.  In any case, I'm not bothered the least by the scouts or Hearst (who reads newspapers anymore?)

[crtreedude]

Any organization of any size has bad apples. When you reach into the barrel, almost all the time with a good organization, you come up with a good apple, people committed to the kids and showing a good example. But, you will at times get a bad one.

The proper response is to go through the barrel looking for the bad apples, clean them out, so that the good apples stay good.

Perhaps the problem now a days is no one has barrels of apples anymore, so don't know what needs to be done?

All my experiences with the BSA have been good ones. Any organization of any size has problems, but I never hit any. And I had nothing but admiration for the leaders that I had.

I discount much of what I read in the newspapers as muckraking, whether I agree with the organization or not. The media thrives on making a mountain out of a mole hill, so when they cry wolf, I tend to ignore them.

[Tom]

Something that is seldom considered is that the Newspapers (media) might do well to dig into their barrel and look for bad apples too.

My opinion is that the media seldom considers anything news unless it is a natural catastrophe or someone is being chastised.

There was a time when news also included the scout who helped the little old lady across the street, the 16 year old girl's coming out party, the big birthday party put on by several parents for their 5 year-old children, the local high school's tennis tournament trophy, the big fish caught yesterday, an advertisement for the church bazaar, the eulogy of the local citizen who never thought he was important, and the price of eggs.

Most media outlets, especially the printed press, have gone out of their way to ignore local issues and serve as a historical recording of local events, in the search for national and international notoriety.  I deem that and the inability of reporters to report without editorializing, a great loss.

[Phorester]

My local daily newspaper has one or two Eagle Scout project pictures every month.  Each summer they have a 1 page or bigger article on our local Boy Scout Camp.  They cover all Council award dinners, etc.  Good positive coverage.

Our Scout Camp was listed in the "top Ten logger" list in that Hearst article. (Shenandoah Area Council).  Hearst doesn't understand this, but that's something to be proud of, actually.  The local paper hasn't bit on that article yet, but I won't mind if they do.  I guarentee it will be a positive "expose' " about Scouts and their science-based conservation efforts.