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kiln chamber delima

Started by brdmkr, January 17, 2009, 05:36:26 PM

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brdmkr

I am getting ready to build a kiln chamber for my Nyle DH unit.  I decided that an 8 x 18 chamber should be about right.  I generally cut 16.5' and 8.5' lumber and I figure the 18' lenght will let me put in 2 bundles of the shorter stuff without too much wasted space with the longer.  I think I should be able to get over 1500 bdft at a time and I really don't think I would have many oportunities to dry more than this at once.  Besides, I mostly cut pine and 2000 bdft is the limit for pine.  So, here is my issue.

I have formed up an area in prep for concrete, but I am wondering if I might not be just as well off to put the chamber inside my shop.  As I see it the tradeoffs are as follows.

With the kiln in the shop,

1) I will save money on concrete and on roofing. 
2) I can side with OSB instead of siding.
3) I would likely gain some in insulation on the walls, BUT the floor is not isulated.  I could insulate the floor before pouring concrete.
4) I could access the kiln from inside or outside the shop.
5) I would loose the floor space in the shop.
6) I am concerned that a catostrophic kiln malfunction would damage the shop and not just the kiln chamber.  While I doubt this would happen, my wife is really concerned here.

Do you guys haev any opinions about this?

Thanks.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Tom Sawyer

With the kiln in the shop you also gain heat in the shop from the kiln.  If I was doing it the way I wanted to, I would make it like OneWithWood's kiln and make it so I could load and unload the kiln from inside without having to worry about the dry wood getting in the weather.

Tom

Kelvin

I would've made mine a little longer.  I too thought, well i cut 8'6" so 18' would be plenty, but i tell you i'm a bad stacker or life isn't that easy.  You have some board a little out of whack and it hits something else.  Everytime i fill my kiln i'm in there chainsawing things and it sucks.  Wish i had another foot i could simply have some sort of baffle to fit around when i do get it right.  I guess i'm not too careful bucking my logs either and since i've started using anchor seal i've gone to 8'3"-4" and i still usually have to trim. 
I built my kiln in my barn and its on wood.  Now i'm worried about the water from condensation from stuff that leaks out.  Maybe mine is a lot more leaky than most, but that moisture is something to think  about.
KP

BBTom

I don't want to be negative here, but I suggest keeping the kiln a separate building.
Here is what my kiln looked like after an electrical problem.

It was attached to my wood shop, so here is what my shop looked like.




I do not wish this on anyone. I have good insurance, but I will never recover everything.  The lost time is priceless.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

brdmkr

Wow BBTom, That is the chief concern that my wife has.  I suppose something like that could happen just using my power tools, but it sure makes me think.  I have seen the pics of OWW's kiln.  In reality, it is his Kiln that has me thinking about going in the shop.  Saving some money and time would be nice as well. 

Of  course if my wife sees BBTom's post, the decision will be made. 

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

kelLOGg

I went thru the same dilemma and decided to put it in the 2nd floor of the barn. The risk/rewards are well stated in this thread so I won't re-iterate although BBtoms photos are compelling.
My chamber is about 5.5 x 16 x 6 and I kiln dry only after air drying. I have only a de-humidifier and window fans and NO additional heat in hopes of minimizing electrical malfunctions. It is well insulated (6 inch batts) and sealed. It performs well: in the recent cold snap (14 degrees in the barn) the inside kiln temp was 110 degrees and 14% RH. I have a high temp cut out for the summer months to prevent overheting but the kiln is so new that I have not operated it yet in the summer. In Georgia you may have similar conditions. My experience is limited so put it where you think it belongs.

Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

marklambert61

I think that I have found the best solution for a kiln chamber....

However I would like to know if other team members have tried them. I have found a 24 foot non working refrigerated shipping container stainless steel walls & ceiling and aluminum grated floor R-Value is R30 for the unit.

Its not cheep but I think it would last a life time....

Thoughts?


Mark

ellmoe

   Shop space is valuable. Separating the kiln from the shop should allow one to survive if disaster hits the other. I'm in the "separate, and not adjacent camp". I try to keep my equipment spread out as much as possible just for that reason. I had a mill burn down once and almost lost a loader, because, for the first time, the operator parked it next to the shop and left it there. A $90,000  machine was within 3 minutes of being lost just to save the operator a few steps.

Mark

Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

TheWoodsman

I'm glad to see this subject as I just bought the WoodMizer/Nyle DH unit and need to get an enclosure built.  I have the same concerns.
2009 Wood-Mizer LT40HDG28, WM-DH4000 dry kiln, & lots of other great "toys"

I am the Woodsman, the four-wheelin', tree-farmin', custom-furniture-makin' descendant of Olaf "The Woodcutter" Ingjaldsson.

brdmkr

I have decided to put the kiln in the shop.  The potential fire danger has me concerned, but the fact is, there should not be a fire unless something goes seriously wrong.  Something could go seriously wrong without the kiln.  Basicially, I would have been spending a couple thousand extra to seperate the kiln from the shop.  I did lose floor space, but the space I lost was occupled by junk anyway.  I also like the idea of loading from the outside and being able to remove dry lumber directly into the shop.  I have it framed and the OSB shell is on it.  I have to insulate and build doors and it should be ready to go.  I hope to post some pics this weekend. 
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

scsmith42

Brdmkr, I just saw this sting and know that you've already made your decision, but wanted to toss in m 2 cents worth.

I would definitely NOT put my kiln inside the shop.  Keep in mind that these things put off heat and humidity, and that's just not what I'd like to see inside my workshop in the summer time!

My kiln is set up adjacent to my sawmill, and I offload directly from the mill onto the kiln carts.  Works like a charm, with minimal material handling. 

Best of success to you with yours.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

brdmkr

Scott,

Thanks for the input.  My shop is not heated or cooled, so during the summer, I just open all the doors and use fans to circulate air.  I plan to have the exhaust vent for the kiln directed outside and it will be insulated to about R25.  I am hoping that the heat will have minimal impact, but you now have me concerned about humidity.  I had assumed that water would be drained to the outside and that vapor would vent through the exhaust vent.  How would the humidity get into the shop? 

If it turns out that the heat and humidity are too much of a problem, I suppose I can move everything outside. 
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

scsmith42

Quote from: brdmkr on January 29, 2009, 10:48:48 PM
How would the humidity get into the shop? 
 

Generally speaking you go into the kiln on a daily basis to perform a visual inspection, check sample boards, etc., and every time that the door is opened some of the hot, humid air escapes.  Its not as much of a concern if you have a small, "man door" for ingress/egress, and don't have to open up the big kiln doors each time (like I have to do).

I'm biased too... I don't care for hot, humid weather so keeping my shop cooler and less humid is probably more of a concern for me versus others.

At the end of the run, when you open up the door to remove the wood a lot of heat comes out (since most runs end at 135 degrees for sterilization, unless it's pine when it's 160 degrees for setting the pitch).  Not much humidity comes out, but a whale of a lot of heat.  It could be nice in the winter but a blast of 160 degree air into an enclosed building in the summer may leave something to be desired...

This can be mitigated by letting the load cool down for a day before opening up the doors and removing it, but then you're losing a day off of your kiln cycle which is unproductive.

Depending upon the run, with slow drying woods such as oak you will sometimes get some mold growth on the boards during early stages of the cycle.  The heat from latter stages will kill the mold, but it can leave a fuzzy residue on the boards that can also blow off into the shop.  This stuff sometimes gets in my lungs and make me cough.  I've noticed that I don't hack as much if I take a leaf blower and blow the stacks off after they come out of the kiln and before I move them into storage.  I do this outside so as to keep the mold spores away from my shop.

These are all reasons why I prefer the kiln to be outside of the shop.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

brdmkr

Thanks Scott.  All good things to keep in mind.  I am starting to think that I might have been better off to put it outside.  However, I am somewhat in a hurry and there is no way I could be as far along as I am now with a seperate construction.  Once things slow down (if they slow down at all), I may move everything outside.  With careful deconstruction, I should be able to save PT plywood and insulation.  Since these are the only things that I bought for the chamber, I won't lose much monitarily if a move is needed.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

OneWithWood

I took great care in the construction of my chamber.  No heat or humidity escapes into my shop, or at least none that is detectable.  When the cycle is done I open up both doors on the kiln as well as the barn doors at either end of the rails.  I have not noticed any heat increase coming off the pile into the shop, but then my shop is a barn and not insulated.  The lumber generally goes home or to storage soon after it comes out of the chamber.

There are good arguments either way for positioning the kiln.  I chose inside for convenience, cost savings, and protection of the lumber.  I go directly from the mill to the cart and then into the kiln so air drying is not a consideration.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

BBTom

I just would like to add something to this thread about kilns.  I am using my second one, I am certain others on the forum have more experience than I do, But the lesson I have learned about kilns is that they should be airtight.  don't even let yourself think that that 1/4 inch you can see light thru is not going to make a difference, it will.  Do anything and everything you can to make them airtight, and they will work so much better with much more control. 
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

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