Black locust vs Ipe

Ron Wenrich · January 11, 2009, 07:07:17 PM

On the east coast, there are miles of boardwalks. These are wide walks made primarily of treated southern yellow pine and are primarily in resort towns. There are millions of bf of lumber in these walks. They don't last all that long, considering they are exposed to the salt air, french fries, and sea gull droppings.

So, they have turned to Ipe, which is a Brazilian rainforest wood. The Rainforest Alliance has persuaded many local communities to use black locust as a replacement wood whenever they can. I'm not sure if the treated wood is a problem for the resorts, or its the coarseness of lumber when it starts to wear out.

Wildwood, NJ is doing some rehab work, and bought $100,000 worth of black locust from a supplier in NY. The stuff was so poorly manufactured that it was rejected. It had lots of bark, large knots, and it was all split up. They ordered Ipe, even though they would like to use the domestic stuff. The Ipe they are buying is certified.

Seems like there is a niche market here. But, quality rules the day and another domestic market may be lost to foreign markets.

fstedy · January 11, 2009, 07:52:20 PM

Ron
The durability and secondly the coarseness are prime factors. I live just outside Atlantic City and most boardwalks down here have been using IPE for years it wears like iorn and is impervious to the salt atmosphere. Several towns have experimented with different materials ( treated pine which doesn't hold up to the traffic and aluminum which gets to hot and slippery in addition it pits from the salt. I haven't heard of anyone doing any major renovations with anything but IPE from certified forests.

SwampDonkey · January 11, 2009, 08:24:49 PM

All pressure treated spruce up here in the towns and parks that I've walked along, most likely from local forests and treated here. We don't get high traffic use that I've ever seen on waterfront boardwalks. You could almost shoot a cannon down them most days. They try to mimic ideas up here and that is one of them. They think it's a tourist attraction I guess. I don't see it that way, I see it as a "sprucing up". :D

Ironwood · January 11, 2009, 08:33:48 PM

Perhaps the foresters will pipe up here, but from my perspective (been pushing people to use locust for decking for years) it is a volume/ log quality issue. The volumes needed are dunting, it can be provided on small scale, but due to bark borers (specific to species) and accompanying damage from them, it is very difficult to find lots of logs. I have some here but none are big, and even the nice smaller ones have scarring, inclusion and "void" issues.

Ironwood

thedeeredude · January 11, 2009, 08:42:16 PM

A lot of the black locust here goes hollow when they're not too old. What causes that? Mind, this is stuff grown in the open, don't know if that has an effect though.

SwampDonkey · January 11, 2009, 08:46:07 PM

The interpretation of why they go hollow is wide open my friend. We have no idea of the history of the trees you experience with hollow trunks. Could be cow pasture, spring fire season (burning grass and weeds up to the trunk). ;D

bmill · January 11, 2009, 09:04:26 PM

Really dumb question.....I have a fair amount of very large Honey Locust trees, do they have similar properties to Black Locust? I've been trying to find a use for them once I drop them, I could always use some extra decking. The thorns on these are really nasty.

SwampDonkey · January 11, 2009, 09:11:26 PM

Black is pretty much tops for decay resistance and strength. Honeylocust may split or check bad, but both are known to warp a bit.

Brad_S. · January 11, 2009, 09:15:52 PM

I tried to fill an order for a boat dock from locust and lost my shirt on it. Logs of decent size had heart rot and boards from those that didn't would banana up as I ripped it off. Over 60% waste that was only good for burning. I would never undertake such a project as the NJ boardwalks.

WoodMiller · January 11, 2009, 10:09:56 PM

Kind of a shame about Black Locust log availability and usability. According to an article in today's paper, the "environmentalists" are criticizing Wildwood for using lumber "from the Amazon rainforests". Not one word about the IPE being from certified sources.......

Woodmiller

beenthere · January 11, 2009, 10:16:18 PM

Quote from: WoodMiller on January 11, 2009, 10:09:56 PM
Kind of a shame about Black Locust log availability and usability. According to an article in today's paper, the "environmentalists" are criticizing Wildwood for using lumber "from the Amazon rainforests". Not one word about the IPE being from certified sources.......

Woodmiller

I wouldn't expect that the enviro's give a tinkers DanG about it being certified (albeit that is supposedly the answer to their crying). They will criticize just to criticize, IMO and from what I've seen.

fstedy · January 11, 2009, 10:46:17 PM

:D :

Believe me this is NJ you wouldn't dare to use anything that wasn't from a certified source :

:D

jim king · January 11, 2009, 11:39:52 PM

I would venture a guess that there is not enough certified IPE in the States to build a dock at a lake cabin. This certification thing is a simple scam and should be investigated.

http://www.fsc-watch.org/

Norm · January 12, 2009, 07:42:28 AM

Quote from: bmill on January 11, 2009, 09:04:26 PM
Really dumb question.....I have a fair amount of very large Honey Locust trees, do they have similar properties to Black Locust? I've been trying to find a use for them once I drop them, I could always use some extra decking. The thorns on these are really nasty.

Bmill I've got tons of them on my farm and have milled a fair amount of them into lumber. The wood is not rot resistant like black locust, and in fact the sapwood is like candy to bugs. I cut logs that I staged for later one summer and when you walked by the pile you could actually hear the bugs knawing on them. On the other hand the lumber is actually very pretty with the jacket boards having a neat pattern where the thorn clusters were. The biggest downside to milling them is the thorns. I haven't milled any in a couple of years and still find a thorn every now and then from the last time I did.

Tom Sawyer · January 12, 2009, 08:35:26 AM

I agree with Norm. Honey locust is a very pretty wood. I cut some for a customer who was planning to use it for an outside project. He changed his mind when he saw the wood and decided some furniture was a better idea.

Tom

chep · January 12, 2009, 11:36:31 AM

How about Catalpa? I have been told by a proffessor that it had very close to the same longevity and durability as Black locust, I guess I havn't seen to many stands full of lumber quality catalpa trees. Just curious
thanks

Dodgy Loner · January 12, 2009, 03:05:19 PM

It's rot-resistant, but probably not so much as black locust. It's also very soft and would probably make poor decking.

Gary_C · January 12, 2009, 03:54:16 PM

I thought that IPE was used as trailer decking as it was similiar to white oak in rot resistance and was lighter in weight. The weight savings was worth the lower strength properties.

I think many trailer manufacturers advertised IPE as being a superior trailer decking.

Dodgy Loner · January 12, 2009, 05:11:15 PM

Not so sure about that. Ipe is listed at 62 lbs/ft³, while white oak is about 63 lbs/ft³, so there's not much difference in weight. Ipe is also more rot-resistant than white oak, so I guess it would make superior decking.

Ironwood · January 14, 2009, 04:07:21 AM

Ipe is VERY heavy.

Here is some burled honey locust. This is from a local campus of Pitt.

Ironwood

jim king · January 14, 2009, 09:02:24 AM

I thought someone may like to see what an Ipe tree looked like. On the fallen tree note the person in the green shirt at the end of the log. It is ome of the hardest and heaviest woods in the Amazon.

Dodgy Loner · January 14, 2009, 09:34:10 AM

Ipe is in the catalpa family and actually has very showy flowers. This ipe was growing in front of a eucalyptus plantation in Espirito Santo, Brazil.

They lose their leaves before they flower, so the flowers really stand out.

Ironwood · January 14, 2009, 04:37:27 PM

Can you experienced locust millers out there imagine how many locust trees it would take to get that kind of volume. Shucks, just the carbon footprint of the fuel wasted cutting the nasty hollow locust makes importing it worthwhile :D

Ironwood

SwampDonkey · January 14, 2009, 05:23:56 PM

Besides, Jim needs a job to.

ARKANSAWYER · January 14, 2009, 07:00:27 PM

The last time I priced Ipe a 5/4 x 6 x 8' was like $16.00. I would sell them walnut for that price and it last pretty well outside and wears very well. Since walnut is not selling well right now it would really help the market. I have about 10 mbdft of logs right now.