electrical guidance for a 200amp main panel

[blaze83]

Hi all,

have a quick question for any and all electricians on the forum here.  I snapped the photo below of the main panal for my shop. Pretty basic, all circuits are either 110 or 220 and they are all ran to there respective areas. As you can see they are inside the panel, but not trimmed, and placed into their corresponding circuit breakers. My question is: how do you guys or gals usually run the wire inside the panel. I looked at the one here for the house and it's a mess, looks like speggetti ,so i know i don't want to do it that way :D.  I was thinking of looping the wires that come in on the right side of the panel along the bottom and then inserting the wires into the breakers on the left side of the panel, and then switch for the other side......or is it better to just run the wires in and terminate them at the closest breaker? I would think it is wise to leave extra wire in the panel so adjustments can be made later if new breakers are added and things get moved around.  Anyway, long winded question for something not really critical, no inspections in rural Ohio 8), but i still want to do things correctly.

any comments or pictures are welcomed and very appriciated.


thanks all,

Steve

[Raider Bill]

Steve,
I'm not an electrician but how I do it is strip the romex off the cables about 1" inside the box. Run the nuetral to the block along the bottom and up for the far side then run the power side to the breaker, I also ran these along the side of the box. . I took my kliens and put a nice pretty 90 degree bend in the wire straight across from the breaker. I figure the extra it took to do it this way would allow me to move a bit later if I needed to.
MAde a nice pretty looking job.

[beenthere]

Neat is good... ;D
Looping with extra wire sometimes fills up the space pretty quick tho.

Sometimes the speggetti comes later when adding new circuits...at least that is how mine came about.  ;D

So far so good...and a pic when you are done for comparison will be great too. 

[Slabs]

Mine always look like spaghetti.  Just can't help it.  Then comes the add-ons.  Vermichelli.

Yours is a flush-mount box so your entry options are limited.  Try to route the wires into the side that their respective breakers will be located.  Don't make the wire bends too sharp.  Lectricity likes straight conductors.  I've also seen excessive end-stripping and think it's tacky as well as hazardous.  The fewer exposed conductors, the better.  You can't help the unused breaker positions and the busses will be there.  Don't know if anyone has come up with buss covers for unused breaker positions but they would be keen.

Good luck and keep the pics coming.  We all need some motivation toward professionalism.

[sawman]

  We run our wires down alongside the side of the panel and then bend the conductor so that it will go straight into the breaker. When finished we put wire ties on the bundles down the side to hold them together. Makes for a nice and neat looking install.

[TexasTimbers]

Mine is so full I'm going to have to set a sub panel. It was the highest capacity the supply house had in stock at the time and I figured it would be fine. I don't even have everything in it I need. 

[farmerdoug]

If you want to allow some extra wire then leave it outside the box in the wall cavity.  Then if you need a little more it the future you just loosen the wire clamps and pull a little in.  Just do not leave the whole roll in the wall. : ;D

[Don_Papenburg]

If you do leave the whole roll in the wall ,cover it quick with drywall .
then the thieves will not steal it .

[J_T]

Even if not inspected i like to follow code .First your 3 main wires coming in i would put white tape on the neutral wire .On ii0 circuits i would put the white wire on the neutral bus bar and the bare on a ground bar that i most time install even thou the neutral bare is bounded to the box by way of a green ground screw .As already said i trim all the main covering but about an inch that way i just got the separate wires in the chase way .If it is a new box don't remove more knock out than you use breakers .If you do they do have blanks to fill the holes .Hope you have wire size to amp and breaker correct  ???At max use i never exceed 80% of max rated amps .Did some wiring for buddy not long ago an told him in case of fire for any reason an they sift the ashes i want it to code or i won't do it .They also make a compound to coat the main wire ends where it connects the copper to aluminum blocks .Good luck .Standard disclaimer apply s    

[VT]

Nolox is one Chemical ("They also make a compound to coat")
Neat is good , lots of replys on that , striping length also, extra wire length , but breaker placement is very important , It looks like a FPE stab-lok board, Do the 220 breakers first , and make sure you grab both legs of the bar. then you can fill in the 110 ones, and if your using a breaker as a switch also (I do on certain shop equipment (wandering fingers) put those breakers on a easy part of the board and mark them well for a quick eye check and flip <mine are lower 4 right side, >..

if wire colour is not correct for what it's used for , mark like it has been said, White / Red /black .., That helps as you get younger.

VT

[logwalker]

  We run our wires down alongside the side of the panel and then bend the conductor so that it will go straight into the breaker. When finished we put wire ties on the bundles down the side to hold them together. Makes for a nice and neat looking install.

That's the way I learned too. I keep my 220 breakers at the top and 110 at the bottom. When I pull the wire I write the name of the circuit on the cover neatly in black permanent marker. I cut that piece off and slip it over the black conductor where it goes into the breaker. So even with the cover off you know all the circuits. The inspector likes to see a neat box. They will hardly look at the rest if it is professional looking in the main box. Joe

[OneWithWood]

Neat pays dividends.  LW, I like the way you mark your circuits.  Excellent idea.

[blaze83]

thanks guys for all the input,

i was fortunate to have worked with a 20 year journeyman electrician for a while when i was in seattle, so i learned a great deal from him. Most of what we did was remodel so i never had the oppertunity to wire in a brand new panel from scratch. I will put my 220 breakers on top and then my 20 and 15 amp single pole breakers down below. The panel has 30 slots, with my count i have 22 full so i have a few for expansion, and have already planned 2 more wire runs for the future : I also label everything that comes into the panel with a sharpie, and sometimes into a junction box or other box if i think it will help me keep things orderly and straight in my mind. I'm even thinking about making removeable panels above and below the circuit panel, for easy access, cause i know as soon as everything is drywalled i will need to run a new circuit for something :D geeze the shop started as a 20 X 36 pole structure, now it's 20 X 48 stick framed with 2 stories.....it just keeps growing :D  i have pics in my thread how i spent my summer for any one that wants to see.  I'll get some pics of the panel when i get her wired up.  I think i will try and loop the wires from one side to the other like I mentioned, if I don't like it i can trim them back. Kinda nice not having any deadlines to meet,  I'm just taking my time and enjoying the work.

thanks again for all the suggestions and ideas,


Steve

[rebocardo]

I do not think I would loop cables, especially any 230V circuits.

No electrical expert, but, I have observed that when a circuit does fry, if you have a bunch of extra cable, you have a bunch of hot melting plastic that can melt all over the rest of the extra  looped cables (cascade) and cause a nightmare and bigger fire from multiple shorts from one exposed loop/circuit to another loop.

Marking cables with felt tip is okay, but, I would not use paper labels. I think the sheath on cable is suppose to be self extingushing to min. fire inside closed spaces.

If I had loops, I would support them and make sure there was a min. of movement (hot cold cycles and from loads) and that they did not pull down on the CB connection. If I had loops, I woudl place them below the CB, not above it.

[dolittle]

Get the 30 space ground bar for the grounds.  Run the hots down the side and into the breaker with neat bends not too sharp.  There is no need to leave extra wire in the box just in case you might move a breaker some day.  That is what wire nuts are for as that is just a big junction box.  Too much extra wire counts as box fill and makes future work difficult.

[logwalker]

If that is the service entrance main box you need to find the bonding screw that was supplied with the box and bond the neutral to the box and ground. I think that is code in most areas. Joe

[PineNut]

When I wire a panel, I like to leave some extra wire. My approach is to run wires that enter from the panel from the top to lower terminals in the panel and lower wires to upper terminals. I usually wire the ground wires first and place them in a corner of the box. If necessary, they can be secured with a tie wrap. Neutral wires are next and run them along the side of the box.  Then the line wires are run down the side of the box and wired to the circuit breakers.

I do not use a jumper from the neutral to the box. Instead, I run a separate ground wire to the external ground at the meter base and connect this to the ground wires and bond it to the box Usually the ground terminals are connected directly to the box. By wiring this way, if you have a fault in a connection on the neutral, the box and all of the grounds in the structure will not be hot. I have had this to happen before in a house wired by professionals.

[logwalker]

The point of grounding the neutral is to give it a path of least resistance to ground in a safe manner. The neutrals are carrying current and there is shock potential. Here is a link to a National Electric Code discussion  of the neutral to ground issue. It should only be done in  the service entrance box and certain appliances and meter enclosures.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/Neutral-to-GroundConnections~20020521.htm

[blaze83]

well I wired up the panel today 8)  thanks to every one for the ideas and indput, as you can see by the pictures i desided not to loop the wire like I originally planned.... I started that way but the panel was just to full of extra wire, would have been way to difficult to add more circuits later...Joe...Thanks for the heads up on the grounding of the neutral bus...the panel I am using grounds it with a screw, made it easy.  All 220 breakers are on top, 110's below...I have one 220 in place that is currently open but will be filled as soon as i find a nice table saw......someday ....The only thing i have left to do is drive in my grounding rod and connect my ground wire....no metal pipes to ground.


here is how i labeled and seperated my wires going into the panel....still considering making a removable access door for above and below the panel for ease of adding new wire runs in the future.




here is the wired up panel....minus the grounding wire to the ground rod out side...

[beenthere]

Hey, that is too neat to cover up...hafta leave it open or no one can see the nice neat work.
;D ;D

[VT]

Neatest one i've seen ..

VT

[Larry]

I think that is a great looking job and it should remain neat for years to come.  

I'll throw out a suggestion...the last box I installed was put in upside down to facilitate the feeder coming in from the bottom.  In your case it would have saved the 4/0 aluminum wrapping the box to the top and leaving more room.  I'm not an electrician so don't know if that is proper or not...and maybe some boxes should not be flipped.  Comments appreciated as I have another to do in bout a month.

[DouginUtah]

 

My panelboard with the wires ready to connect.



All the wires connected.

Notice the arc-fault breakers which required by code for the bedrooms. Upper ones for the upper bedrooms, lower ones for the lower bedrooms. 200 amp service with 60 going to the garage.

Larry,
The panelboard I installed in the garage feeds from the bottom and it passed.

[blaze83]

Larry,
just when i think i've done a good job some one comes along and does better 8) your panel is imaculate,,,very well done

steve

[easymoney]

i have not heard of arc fault breakers. what are they supposed to do? i am familiar with ground fault breakers, just not brave enough to touch a hot wire to test one. ;D