a dumb question? 4/4 vs. 1"

[timberfaller390]

I have saw alot of posts where guys will use 4/4 and 1" thickness measurments in the same post.Example: I have some 4/4 cherry blah blah blah and some 1" oak blah blah blah. Whats the differance or is there one?

[Dana]

I think you are mixing 4"x4"post terms with a dimensional lumber term of 4/4  which would translater out as 4 quarters of an inch (1 inch)
5/4 is an inch and a quarter 6/4 is an inch and a half, these 1/4 inch measurements continue up.

[timberfaller390]

I thought thats how it worked but got confused reading a few different posts

[flip]

When I use the term 4/4 or 6/4 I mean that measurement (1" or 1 1/2" respectively) plus an 1/8" to 3/16".  When I use 1", 2" or what ever I mean exactly that.  I have used and seen the two inter used but when I hear something/quarter, I'm ususlly thinking grade.

[Tom]

4/4 (four quarter) is the term used when talking about rough lumber.  It is a piece of lumber, that when dressed, will produce a .75 inch thick board.  A 4/4 board (rough) can be 1" up to, but not including 1 1/4"

Once the board reaches 1 1/4" it becomes, commercially, a 5/4 (five quarter) board.

1" (one inch) boards are usually being referred to as dressed one inch thick. They may be 3/4" to 1" in thickness, but are generally, commercially, .75 inches, or, at least, no less.

Unfortunately, we sometimes lapse into conversation where we speak using an Inch scale rather than a Quarter scale.  Being sawyers, we generally know what is meant, but even we become confused and have to ask for clarification.

As a general rule, when people use the term "inch", they are talking about either dressed sizes, or true measurements.

When people use the term "quarter", as in four-quarter, they are talking about nominal sizes or rough sizes or accepted sizes that, when dressed, will make a commercially acceptable "dressed size".

Sometimes it makes more sense to read a professionall done article.  Technical writers are fairly concise and don't use "maybe", "sometimes", or "if" to much, llike we tend to do.  This link, The Wood Handbook will tell you a lot about wood sizes, etc.  There are also many little pieces of info to be found in the Forum's Knowledge Base, which can be reached by clicking on The Forum Extras button at the top of the page.   I use it a lot to see what other's on the forum have said. 

[timberfaller390]

Thanks Tom, that was a great explination.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  4/4 in softwood and hardwood is different.  4/4 in hardwood is an 1 1/8 inch thick board.  In softwood  it will be 1 inch thick board.  But in the store a 1x8 board will be 3/4 thick and 7 1/2 wide in both softwood and hardwood.
  My hardwood wholesale buyer will take 4/4 lumber that is between 1.062 to 1.2 inch.  Softwood wholesale place wants it 0.90 to 1.062
  Now how muddy is the water?   

[Ron Wenrich]

I've always thought the 4/4, 5/4 etc type of lumber went into cabinets, furniture and molding.  It is different than dimension stock.  1", 1 1/2", etc is dimension stock and have different uses, mainly studding and building. 

My 4/4 & 5/4 pine is cut the same as my 4/4 & 5/4 hardwoods.  Same types of buyers for that grade of material.

My 8/4 and heavier specs are all for 1/4" over as a target size.  My 2" can be cut right on, and that's still heavier than store bought 2".

[Jeff]

Same here, worked in a sawmill my entire working life and our 4/4 5/4 or what ever was cut the same be it hard or soft. Any deviation from that was customer specified, and the deviations where specified by giving exact measurements needed.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Yea but you guys are circle sawyers and were just wasting logs as fast as you could.  A 1/8th target could not be hit any way.  Your customers needed the extra meat to plain out your saw marks.  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
  I have sawn oak 15/16 th thick and dried it and still plained out a 3/4 board clean on both faces. 8)

[Jeff]

I'm afraid you are misinformed.

[SwampDonkey]

Having not worked around a saw mill, the first I seen the quarter system used was from you US folks. I've been in softwood mills and they talk 2 x 4" rough, which when dressed is less but still called a 2 x 4" we get at the hardware or lumber yard.

But, I did notice at the hardwood lumber broker they use the quarter system and their inventory is all rough and kilned.

[SwampDonkey]

I have sawn oak 15/16 th thick and dried it and still plained out a 3/4 board clean on both faces. 8)

If it didn't cup in the mean time. That puts a crimp in the thickness. :D

[Ron Wenrich]

Standard thickness after drying and planing per the NHLA rules:

"Standard thicknesses for surfaced lumber is calculated by
subtracting 3/16" from standard rough thickness for lumber 1-
1/2" thick or less and by subtracting 1/4" for lumber between 1-
3/4" and 4" thick as follows:
Rough         Surfaced       Rough           Surfaced
3/8" S2S to 3/16"          1-3/4" S2S to 1-1/2"
1/2" S2S to 5/16"          2" S2S to 1-3/4"
5/8" S2S to 7/16"          2-1/2" S2S to 2-1/4"
3/4" S2S to 9/16"          3" S2S to 2-3/4"
1" S2S to 13/16"           3-1/2" S2S to 3-1/4"
1-1/4" S2S to 1-1/16    4" S2S to 3-3/4"
1-1/2" S2S to 1-5/16"

I saw for commercial markets.  They pay the bills, they set the specs.  If I sawed my 4/4 on 1", marks or no marks, it would be thrown out as being poorly manufactured.  My specs have always been 1/8" over for 4/4 to 6/4. 

[oakiemac]

Arky-if you cut 15/16" oak off the saw then you wont be able to sell it as 4/4. As stated above 4/4 has to be 1/16 to 1/18" over so that when it dries it is at an inch. I know none of the lumber buyers around here will take it if cut at 15/16.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  My wholesaler in hardwood requires me to hit the 1 1/8 for my grade hardwoods to be in the 4/4 market.  They will take 1 1/16  to 1 3/16 but will reject a 1 inch board or a 1 1/4.  They will become culls.  In a year I almost never have a cull board.

  The 15/16 are boards less then 8 inches wide and are all done in house.  Here I can sell 1/2, 1/4 stock and often split 4/4 to make it after dried.

  I sell alot of timbers and when sawing timbers I saw for the timber.  That being said means I may cut a 15/16 board off one face and a 1 3/8 off the other if that is what it takes to make the timber.  But since I have my own kiln and a good retail sale market none is wasted.

  There is no profit in trying to skimp on thickness of green lumber.  I have seen guys saw 1 inch hardwood lumber thinking that they are saving money and making more lumber.  The truth being told is they have to make 9 cuts on the face to produce one more board.  Which means they run the risk of a good outside board not plaining to thickness for one more low grade board in the middle of the log.

[SwampDonkey]

I know when I'm rumbling through my hardwood stash, I look for 1-1/8" thick stuff. If it's dead flat I may possibly get 1" planed, I usually target 7/8" because the next three boards I pull might be a little cupped because of a knots or near the pith. I ran into that today when pulling some 8" cherry from the bottom of the pile that was less the perfect. What one does is just conceal the defect.  ;D

[Dana]

Rereading your post this morning, I have no idea from where I thought you were making 4x4 posts. :D

I haven't ever sawn for the comercial market. However, I do saw for customers and if they ask for 4/4 or 5/4 they expect 1" or 1 1/4 ". When they help I will give them a tape after the first board is cut  to confirm that my cut has met their requirement. None have ask me to make the boards thicker. Most are repeat customers, so I guess they know what they need.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday Boys

How about trying this on for size  ;) :D :D ;D  1/2 = 13mm, 3/4= 19mm ,1 = 25mm ,1 1/4 = 32mm ,1 1/2 = 38mm ,1 3/4 = 43mm , 2 = 50mm and a std oversize for drying and planing of 1/4 or 6 mm

widths are 3" =75mm, 4"=100mm , 5" =125mm, 6"=150mm, 7"= 175mm, 8"=200mm, 9"=225mm, 10"= 250mm, 11"=275mm and 12" = 300mm

Thats what we where left to work with since the conversion to metric in the 60s but overhere even now you have to be bilingual  ;) :D i use both inturn but when dealing with standard sizes i lean more toward Impiral measurement 4x2 10x3 ect ect  ;) :D ;D ;D 8)

Reguards Chris  ;)

[Engineer]

This is my understanding - take it as you will:

In either hardwood or softwood, x/4 refers to the actual thickness in quarters of an inch, plus 1/16" to 3/16" additional.  An example - 4/4 is spoken as "four quarter" or "four quarters" which is typically sawn at 1-1/16" to 1-3/16".  The typical "target" that I aim for is 1-1/16".  If it is really wide stock I will saw heavy to allow for some cupping.  Heavy being not more than 1-1/4".  Once it hits the next quarter higher, it's sold as the next quarter higher.  So 1-1/4" through 1-7/16" is 5/4 (or "five quarter") etc. Once you hit 16/4, and in some cases 20/4, it usually gets marketed as a beam, plank or flitch. 

Once it's dressed, it's referred to as either the nominal thickness in quarters, or the actual thickness in inches.  If you want 3/4" actual thickness, you would typically ask for 4/4 rough.  This can get really confusing because I have often seen S4S lumber dressed to 13/16" or 7/8" with the implication that the end user will plane it further to 3/4" for final use.  I have also had some success milling a heavy 4/4 in narrower stock (but not quite 5/4 - maybe 1-3/16") and getting a full 1" dressed lumber out of it.  I will also leave finished stock heavy on purpose for things like shelves.  No point in wasting 1/8" to 1/4" of lumber to planer shavings when it will add a LOT of strength to the finished product.  Buying from the big box store or the nice plastic-wrapped oak and poplar at the local hardware store, you don't get that flexibility.  If I mention 1" thick stock in a post, I'm implying that it was sawn rough at 5/4 and I planed it (thicknessed) to 1" final dimension.

[Larry]

Standard thickness after drying and planing per the NHLA rules:

"Standard thicknesses for surfaced lumber is calculated by
subtracting 3/16" from standard rough thickness for lumber 1-
1/2" thick or less and by subtracting 1/4" for lumber between 1-
3/4" and 4" thick as follows:
Rough         Surfaced       Rough           Surfaced
1" S2S to 13/16"           

Rons post is a quote straight from the NHLA rule book.  I deleted a little to talk about one thickness...4/4 as an example.  When I went to NHLA short school, we spent couple hours talking about this rule.  The Chief inspector said rough thickness could vary all over the place for 4/4...1", 1-1/16", 1-1/8", 1-3/16".  But it had to absolutely, positive clean after drying to 13/16"...no exceptions or it wasn't considered 4/4 lumber.  So...wholesale lumber companies don't want nothing but 1-1/8" to make sure it will clean to the magic number...13/16".  Lumber dealers selling 3/4" surfaced and dried hardwood could technically not call it 4/4...it's to thin.  I know some do. 

Softwood lumber rules are different and I don't know much about them...I think 3/4" thickness can be considered 4/4 according to there rules...but I'm not sure.

[beenthere]

................

Softwood lumber rules are different and I don't know much about them...I think 3/4" thickness can be considered 4/4 according to there rules...but I'm not sure.

And softwood lumber varies by its use...be it for factory lumber and Shop grades, or dimension lumber (structural market).  There also is Yard lumber. 

Good discussion, and don't think anyone is wrong here. Depends what the agreement is between buyer and seller, and if the sawyer is cutting lumber for his own use (thus possibly different target green thickness). The trick might be how one will scale the oversize lumber to convert to board feet. If the buyer says he wants 1000 bd ft of 4/4 lumber oversized to 5/4, then he should pay for 5/4. Or you just figure it in when pricing his order.

[Tom]

If it came off of my mill, 5/4 would sell for 5/4, not 4/4.  I'd sell 4/4 right up to it almost being 5/4 though.

I have to say something about the 3/4" stock, Larry. I'm not being confrontational or a smart aleck, just offering my opinion.  So, don't anybody think I'm fussing or being a know it all.

Lumber dealers selling 3/4" surfaced and dried hardwood could technically not call it 4/4...it’s to thin.  I know some do

. 

3/4" stock can never be 4/4.  4/4, by definition can be no less than 1".  3/4" boards are called 1" boards, not 3/4", at the lumber yard. Dressed 1" is actually 5/4 nominal.   So, mixing dressed sizes with quarter designations in a conversation with a customer is not only confusing, but probably wrong too.  

If I'm asked to produce boards less than 1" thick, nominal (rough), I make sure that they understand that anything I cut less than 1" will be billed as 4/4.

That's what makes it so difficult to deal with some customers.  They think it is smart to appear knowledgeable by referring to all lumber in quarter designations, not understanding that they are comparing apples and oranges.   It makes it tough on a sawyer, sometimes, to figure out what they are talking about.

I've seen a lot of people argue about the board footage in a load of dressed 2 x 4's and use the dressed sizes in the formula to prove what they are talking about.  1 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 8 / 12    They aren't figuring board feet of 2 x 4's.  Board footage is figured on nominal measurements regardless of what the stick ends up measuring in dressed size.

[Dana]

If it came off of my mill, 5/4 would sell for 5/4, not 4/4.  I'd sell 4/4 right up to it almost being 5/4 though.

Tom, thats how I would figure it also.

I've seen a lot of people argue about the board footage in a load of dressed 2 x 4's and use the dressed sizes in the formula to prove what they are talking about.  1 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 8 / 12    They aren't figuring board feet of 2 x 4's.  Board footage is figured on nominal measurements regardless of what the stick ends up measuring in dressed size.

Now you got me wondering. ??? In your example of board footage, If I cut a1 1/2 x3 1/2 x 8' piece of lumber I would figure my board ft from thatsize not what it is actualy called.  (A 2x4x8) Or are you saying that you have cut an actual 2x4 x8 and the customer wants to be billed for his final dressed size of 1 1/2 x3 1/2 x 8?

[Ron Wenrich]

Whenever I saw 4/4 lumber, its figured out at the 1" scale, although its cut heavy.  Same goes for my ties.  They are sawn a little heavy, but are sold as 7x9. 

If your 2x4s are cut light, they still get figured out at the nominal size.  As long as you and the customer agree on cutting specs, board calculation and prices. 

The only time that you really have to worry about the actual cubic foot volume (1 cu ft= 12 bd ft) is when you are looking at how much things weigh, and you are worried about shipping weights.