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gluing wood

Started by Cedarman, December 17, 2008, 11:07:24 PM

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Cedarman

It looks like I am going to have to glue up panels of 3/8" cedar into pieces 16" or multliples of 16"+long by 13 1/2" wide.  I am going to use 3 pieces. 2 pieces about 3 3/4" and 1 piece at 6".  I have clamps to press.  My question is what is the best way to get glue on the edges of the board? I have heard of glue rollers but know nothing of them.  What will be the best glue for cedar that is dried to about 8 or 9%?  After gluing, the pieces will be S2S to 1/4" and the edges ripped to make a final piece exactly 13 1/8" x 16".  First run is 100

I have never glued 2 boards in my life.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

pigman

Richard, don't you have a bunch of 20 inch cedar logs.  I just use yellow wood glue.I have heard that yellow glue will not work on cedar, but it seems to hold fine for me. With those thin boards you will need to use cauls or the boards  will buckle sometimes. The edges of the boards need to be jointed or made very straight and square by some method. I have a glue roller, but most of the time I just spread the glue with my finger. On a large quanity, a glue roller would be best. They are just a plastic bottle with a rubber roller on the top. They work fine, but I forget to clean mine and the glue dries on the roller.
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

srt

Hello Cedarman,

Funny, I was just getting ready to post questions about cedar fence posts.  First though, I (the cabinetmaker) will attempt to answer your question about glueing boards together.

I've had a little bit of problem with red cedar.  Some things you can do to minimize the chance of a bad joint are to glue fresh (recently jointed, or smooth sawn) edges.  Alternately, you can wipe the edge with a cloth dampened with acetone, and let it flash off before glueing.  Easier to rejoint lightly, or even hit it with a sander, as long as you don't distort the joint.

Titebond II glue, or another mfgr's equivalent should work fine.

You should be able to pull clamps in about 20 minutes.  If it isin't stuck together in that amount of time, the joint's not a keeper.    Don't stress the joints for at least a few hours.

I agree with you about making them wider and thicker than the finished size and then rip and plane to size.  This allows you to not need clamp cauls, and be able to clean up edges (joint, etc.).   Also,  you can get rid of squeeze out with a quick pass using a paint scraper and light planing.

Thin stuff like that tends to warp a bit, especially when glued up.  A couple things to consider.   When you glue them together, you are adding moisture, which causes them to want to warp.  After pulling the clamps, I'd dead stack them on top of each other with a half sheet of newspaper between them, so they don't stick, and some weight on top.  Let 'em sit a couple days  before planing to let them dry out all the way.   You don't want to plane them while those two joints are still hing moisture areas, and then the board move more on you as it dries out.

Wood is funny stuff, you can do all these things to try to minimize problems, but I guarantee you there will still be some that the joints won't be good, and some that'll curl up like a potato chip.  Some of them would have had good tight joints and stayed flat if you did nothing.  It's a game of minimizing the potential of problems.

Most of the text books tell you to alternate the direction of growth rings every other board so one will curl one way, and the next the other, effectively evening out.  In general, I orientate for appearance, and haven't had significant problems.

Have you considered glueing up the stuff thicker and then ripping it to near your final thickness and doing a final planing?  Glueing takes a long time, and this could cut the glue time way, way down?  Glueing thin pieces is a P.I.T.A.. 

The glue rollers that are attached to a bottle may save you some time, and do a neater job.  They're cheap enough to try.  Like pigman, I generally use my finger, unless I'm glueing a large surface area, then I pull out an old rubber roller and go over it just to try to get a more even layer.  I find it harder to determine if I have the right amount of glue on larger surfaces than smaller ones.  Spreading it out with a roller slows me thick and thin glue areas  before I put the boards together.  You don't really nead to spread it on 3/8" thick boards, your clamp will surely do that for you. 

Hope this helps.

ScottAR

It might be easier to glue 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" boards together and then
run them through a resaw or band saw.  That way the time spent
gluing would yield two boards instead of one. 

Could double or triple the length to make the resawing easier with
a bigger chunk but that may not be an issue. 

I don't know what your making but I know sawing happens a lot
faster than gluing.  ;D

Srt types faster than me....
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Larry

The only other thing I can add is yellow or white glue is temperature sensitive...think the minimum is somewhere round 60°.  If colder than that the joint will fall apart...this comes from experience. :(
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Cedarman


Thank You Folks very much for the info.

I have a room that I can keep at 70 degrees or warmer, so that is where the gluing will take place.  I can make blanks thick enough to get 3 pieces out of them and make them about 8' long.  I will dry the thick pieces, make straight edges, glue with a glue roller, let sit for 3 or 4 days, slice to 3/8", let dry in drying room another day or 2 to make sure moisture is down, plane to 1/4", chop to 16", rip edges to end up with 13 1/8".  I think this is what you are telling me to do.

Where is best place to get the glue and a glue bottle with roller?

I would use wide pieces, but they tend to have too many big knots and the knots will crack on the thin pieces.  I can get narrow pieces out of logs with small knots.

These are going to be lids on wedding keepsake boxes, so they have to be rather nice looking.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

metalspinner

My concern with the thicker pieces being resawn is that the middle of the board may have a different MC and may cup when exposed after sawing.

Something that has helped me during glueups- especially thinner panels - is to alternate the show faces against the jointer fence.  If your jointer fence is off a bit, this will give you a complimentary angle on the edges of the panels and allow your glueup to stay flat. 

If your jointed edge is perfect, you may not need clamps at all. After applying glue, "rub" the edges together a bit.  This will create a suction of the edges and hold them together.  But using clamps certainly gives one a peace of mind. ;)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

srt

Cedarman,

Any woodworking store will have gluebottles with rollers.  Not sure how far out you are from a specialty store, so here's a link to order on line.  I've used them before for veneer supplies with good success - they're an old company.  http://www.constantines.com/browseproducts/Glue-Roller-(8-oz.-bottle).html   .  Sorry, the link didn't light up, so you may have to cut/paste.  Could probably also pick one up on ebay, but in general, they're so cheap that I'd sooner gamble on one from a reputable firm like Constantines than a no-name seller on ebay.  Lots of pure junk being peddled on line, and it's hard to tell without being able to hold onto it before you buy it.

I think you got the jist of what we're saying, as far as production goes.  8 foot sticks will save you time over 16" sticks, but consider how much more time it sometimes takes to get an 8 foot board straight compared to two four foot lengths.  Sometimes, you end up chasing your tail.  What I'm trying to say is go for the 8 foot, but if a board gives you particular problems getting straight, don't be afraid to whack it into a pair of 4 footers.  Then you'll only have half the amount of curve to joint out (twice).  This really helps if you're getting close to almost not having wide enough boards for your glue up.  While I sometimes do the "rub them together and the glue will make them stick with no clamps" thing, in a pinch where it's not a structural thing, I don't recommend you even consider trying that on the size stuff you're trying to glue together.  You'll never be able to hold the joints together well enough on three 8 foot boards without clamps to get a good joint.  The type of glue you're going to use is not made for filling gaps either.  Although it can fill gaps in a pinch, it creates a pretty weak joint when you try to span with it.  The old hide glues are really good at the rub thing, because they set up nice and fast.  Hide glue is actually as strong or stronger than many of the PVA (yellow, white) glues, but has little water resistance.

Your center board doesn't have to be ripped so both edges are parrallel, as long as you can joint a straight edge easily on both edges, and the wedge created isin't too excessive, you're good to go.  The wedge effect will be dealt with when you do your final ripping.  May save you a few minutes.

Metalspinner has a very valid point about moisture.  It'll kill your flatness.  My guess is that maintaining reasonable flatness of these panels is going to be the biggest challenge of the project.  It's amazing how much thin wood likes to move.  When differences in moisture between the surface and interior (or other side) of the wood happen, there's not enough bulk there to resist the need  to move, and stuff goes a little haywire sometimes.  Would be a different animal if the panels were to be 3/4" or bigger.

Ditto what MS said about going through the jointer alternating faces against the fence so any "unsquareness" cancels out.  If you find that you're getting tearout though, because this technique forces you to sometimes joint with the grain going the wrong direction. you'll have to either live with the tearout, or get the jointer fence really square.

OK, I'll quit yappin', and do what I'm putting off  - clean up the shop!

metalspinner

QuoteThese are going to be lids on wedding keepsake boxes, so they have to be rather nice looking.

Knowing these panels applications has me thinking now. ::)  I would try to glue up a bookmatched panel.  This will give your panels a really nice look with matching grain.  If the panel will be comprised of 4" - 6" - 4" glueups, then I use a bookmatch on the 4" pieces.  It's a bit more work (premium charge?) but the panel will be that much more attractive.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

pineywoods

I do a fair amount of cedar woodwork. The best glue I've found for oily woods like cedar and walnut is the pvc stuff sold as gorilla glue. It is different tho.
The stuff is a sloppy woodworkers dream...it expands as it sets up and will bridge a big gap. It sands off nicely, won't gum up your sandpaper.  It takes a stain just like wood.
here's some do's and don'ts
Don't buy a big bottle, it sets up in the bottle once opened. It is actually a 2 part epoxy but the catalyst is moisture from the air and wood.
DO NOT spread it on with your finger. Don't get it on your skin PERIOD. Can't wipe it off and I've never found anything that will take it off.
Put the cap back on the bottle ASAP.

I do use clamps, mostly to squeeze out the excess glue. Setup time and temps are about the same as yellow carpenters glue.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Dodgy Loner

I've tried gorilla glue (which is a polyurethane glue, not a pvc glue), and I don't like it at all.  Primarily for the reasons you mentioned: it's messy and stains your skin, it sets up in the bottle, and you have to wet the wood to get a decent bond.  It's also weaker than yellow glue in long-grain applications, such as edge-gluing several boards.  I view gorilla glue as an alternative to expoxy for bonding dissimilar materials, not as a substitute for yellow wood glue.  I don't stain wood unless I cut myself and bleed on my workpiece, so I don't view stainable glue as an advantage for my brand of woodworking ;D.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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pineywoods

DL yer right, it's polyurethane, not pvc. I like it because it's so tolerant of sloppy workmanship ;D You are also right about the strength. I usually use it in combination with a biscuit joiner...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Cedarman

Great info folks.  The folks that want these boxes are penny pinchers.  I have to keep costs as low as possible.  But the book matching idea is good.  I will make a few of those and mark them as such and see if they want me to upgrade to that type of lid. With an accompanying increase in price. When we resaw, it is not a problem to keep the matching boards together as they come out of the resaw 2 at a time.

I will be drying wood at  1 3/8".  Cedar does not move much when it dries, so bowing and warping are very seldom a problem.  I plan to straight line on the WM and run them through the planer 3 boards at a time to get a smooth edge.  This should give me straight smooth boards to glue together.

Keep typing folks, I am learning a bunch.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

metalspinner

QuoteKeep typing folks

OK!  :D

I've been thinking about your cedar project all day. I can't get any work done around here. :D

After cogitating a bit, I would glue two 4" pieces of 4/4 together, then resaw that glueup.  Then glue the resawn book match together.  That works out to just two glue joints to mess with.  Each glued separately. Less hassle that way trying to keep  the slippery glue edges together.  That also give you a double bookmatch for the work of just one. ;D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

woodmills1

  use acid brushes to spread glue

I have done a fair amount of glue ups and for your situation I would make a few cauls, though I am not sure that is the right name to use.  Yes, you need something to keep the panel flat while clamping, especially with thin stock.  I took some 1x3 maple and drilled holes near the ends then put threaded rod and washers and nuts throught the holes.  Two pieces of maple, one above and one below the panel, spacing them around 2 feet apart.  Spread the glue and slide the boards in between the maple, then clamp a little and tighten the rod a little.  If you can slip some wax paper between the maple and panel it won't stick and make it hard to remove.
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SwampDonkey

Treating your maple with a few coats of finish can help keep it from sticking to the work piece with any strength that might tear wood from the piece. Those clamps metalspinner told me about last winter said to do that. I use yellow birch on my clamps.
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