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Started by Sawbuck, July 17, 2003, 02:37:27 PM

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shopteacher

You not only have an envious mill, you have a real treasure.  The lake and dam look like something out of a magazine. ( Field & Stream) Are you having any trouble with the fish getting caught in the turbine?  If so a friend and I will volunteer to come up and take a few of them off yer hands or pinstock whatever the case.  Where about in Ontario are you located?
Welcome to the forum and good luck with the restoration of the mill.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Percy

WOW...what a setup, you could sell pictures of your setup/land/system to the greeting card companys. Thanks for sharing ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

D._Frederick

Sawbuck,
I would pay to see a mill like you have running,great pictures!
I have a American Sawmill Machinery Company catalog dating to early twenties. The feed works on your mill looks like the "Hercules" that American had. The head blocks on your carriage and setworks are not From American Sawmill. None of the American husks have the decorations. I suspect that the feed works was bought from American Sawmill and the rest from other mill makers.

OneWithWood

What a find, Sawbuck!  You are a lucky man. 8)

I am looking forward to seeing more pics and hearing how you get along with such a wonderfull setup.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Sawbuck

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments.  I'll keep you all posted on how things are going. We are likely a month away from any serious sawing.

If anyone would like to have a look in person, let me know and I will arrange a tour :)


dail_h

   That's just too kool. Shoot, if you get tired of sawing, you can just stop,an go fishing.let's see you WMZER guys top that ;D ;D ;D
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Fla._Deadheader

Sawbuck, that is a nice set-up. Does the water run past the turbine to spin it, or, drop down on it??
  I was involved with Alternate Energy a few years ago and would have loved to known about the turbine like you have. How much "head" from the millpond to the turbine blades???
  If ya need help raising them "Sinkers", I got the rig !!! ;D ;D ;)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Sawbuck

QuoteSawbuck, that is a nice set-up. Does the water run past the turbine to spin it, or, drop down on it??
  I was involved with Alternate Energy a few years ago and would have loved to known about the turbine like you have. How much "head" from the millpond to the turbine blades???
  If ya need help raising them "Sinkers", I got the rig !!! ;D ;D ;)

The visable part of the turbine housing in the pictures is the lid of the outer cage.  Around the side are 8 gates that spiral in toward the turbine.  The runner is a Francis reaction turbine.  Water drops down through it and exits on a sharp angle, providing thrust on top of the thrust imparted by the water coming in through the gates.

Full head on the dam is about 10 feet.  The mill turbine uses about 8 feet once you take out the losses.

Here is a picture of a francis turbine runner.   (It's a lot bigger then the one we have) :)

Here is a link to a manufacturer of water wheels.  http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/francis.htm

As for the sinkers, it would be a 26 hour drive for you to haul your boat.  They would have to be some prize logs to make it worth that trip :)

Fla._Deadheader

Yeah, yer right, but, it WOULD be nice to SEE a log before ya tong it. ::) ::) ;D
  That Turbine looks like an enclosed Pelton Wheel type. Pretty slick. Thanks
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

D._Frederick

Sawbuck,
How is the speed (rpm) controlled? Or is it a case of so much head, so many rpm? I you are going to generate AC power, does the other turbine have a governor.

Den Socling

AC would be tough because of the frequency problem. He said that DC had been generated for lighting.

Sawbuck

QuoteSawbuck,
How is the speed (rpm) controlled? Or is it a case of so much head, so many rpm? I you are going to generate AC power, does the other turbine have a governor.

RPM is generally factored in when the pullies are installed.  The turbines are operated at full speed, and stepped up or down depending on the speed required.  You can slow it down by partially closing the gates around the turbine, but you loose power as well as speed.  The turbine runners are generally manufactured to turn a certain speed, and are designed to operate at a certain range of head.

As for AC power generation, It is a little complicated in the mathematics, but all electric moptors/generators have what is called the slip factor.  An 1800 RPM motor actually turns about 1725 RPM.  The loss is due to the slip factor and it is essential for the operation of the motor.  When you generate AC current, you would take an electric motor, and spin it faster than it's rated running speed.  The same 1800 RPM motor would generate power if spun over 1800 RPM.  At 1875 RPM, you would be producing the maximum the motor is capable of gererating.  To set it up for producing power, you determine the shaft speed of the turbine at average head and step up to about 1850 RPM.  It takes a bit of tweeking and likely a few years of monitoring high and low water levels.  You can always cut back on the amount of water entering the penstock, but it you guess too high, it's hard to create water that isn't there :)

Sawbuck

QuoteAC would be tough because of the frequency problem. He said that DC had been generated for lighting.

If you are tied into the power company grid, your generator will automaticly sync with the 60 hz of the grid.  You can have problems if you are generating just for your own use with no grid to sync with.  you have to ballance the load carefully and keep the RPM right.  It would not hurt most electrical aplliances to operate at a range between 50 and 70 hz.  Computers wouldn't like it much though :)

Den Socling

I was thinking of computers and such. You are right. AC motors wouldn't give a hoot if frequency varied.

Fuse the dickins out of any power generation circuits. We would all cry if you burned that mill down!  :D

Looks like you have the time, money and interest in preserving that mill. That's great.

Jason_WI

Most computer grade power supplies can tolerate a range from 47 to 63 Hz since they operate from 50 or 60 Hz AC power and from 85 VAC to 240 VAC depending on where you live.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Sawbuck

QuoteFuse the dickins out of any power generation circuits. We would all cry if you burned that mill down!  :D

Looks like you have the time, money and interest in preserving that mill. That's great.

You can be sure it will be well fused :)  The whole mill is going to be rewired as soon as possible.

As for money, the reason I chose the name sawbuck is because so far, all we have run through the mill is money :)

We don't have a lot, but we are doing everything right the first time.  It will take longer to get up to full production, but we are sure it will run another century if we get it back to it's original condition.

Interest I have aplenty.  I have dreamed of having something like this since I was a small child looking down at the ruins of a hydro-electric station.  So many of them were torn down after the big coal burning plants were built, then most of the rest after the nuclear plants.  Sawmills have also always fascinated me.  This is the best of both worlds :)

D._Frederick

Sawbuck,
How much water flow do you have, would it be enough to generate power to sell to your local power company? At the price of electricity it may be possible to get some return back on your investment.

chet

Sawbuck, Even if you never saw a single board, dats OK cause that mill sure is purty to look at anyways.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Sawbuck

QuoteSawbuck,
How much water flow do you have, would it be enough to generate power to sell to your local power company? At the price of electricity it may be possible to get some return back on your investment.

We have deeded rights to "run of the river".  Ther is enough flow to generate 60 to 75 kw.  Enough to run 10 average homes.  We could only do this while the saw is idle though.  It take about 75% of the turbine output to keep the saw at full speed.  Also, unless we spend a lot of money on high voltage 3-phase equipment, the power companies really aren't too interested in it.  (unless we pay to run 600 volt lines about 10 miles)  If we can generate 1200 volts or better, then they would be interested.

Sawbuck

QuoteSawbuck, Even if you never saw a single board, dats OK cause that mill sure is purty to look at anyways.


 ;D Thank you!  We will be sawing though.  Just as soon as we get a good source of timber, and a market for the lumber :)

Buzz-sawyer

Hi sawbuck,
A possibility (maybe you have already explored) is buying a used high voltage transformer to step up your voltage output to the 12000 they want.....should be cheap to nothing from salvage source pretty comon use in industry and power companies.....?  Also if you would like to see some pics of my mill set up click below
Don

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1057247948
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

smwwoody

Sawbuck
Sawbuck

You sound like you know something about electric generation.  You may be able to help me with my newest project.  I have about 50 extra horse power comeing from my diesel that i am not useing it is rated at 210hp and max load on everything I am only useing 120hp so I figure it is safe to say that there are and extra 50 horses looking for something to do. I want to generate AC to light my mill and run a few motors.  I have a lot of single and 3 phase motors sitting around doing nothing. everyone tells me that I can not generate ac power with a motor that is belt driven off of my diesel  

Woody  
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Rick Schmalzried

Woody,
That is only partially untrue :D

A normal AC motor (single or three phase) requires incomming power to generate the magnetic fields in the windings of the stator (the stationary part).  This then generates electricity, which causes magentism in the rotor (the part that turns) which (amazingly  :o ) causes it to turn.  If the motor is a synchronous type (such as a 3 phase), now that it is turning and everything is magnetized, if you feed mechanical power back into the motor, it will generate electricity.

Unfortunatly, it is the case that it requires electricity before you can generate it, but if you have it, you likely don't need to generate it ;D

A possibility would be to look around for an old farm generator that is no longer in use.  My grandfather had one that powered his farm before the utility company came by and connected the power grid.  I doubt the engine has been run in over 50 years.  If you would uncouple the generator and power it from your diesel you could get quite a bit of power.

If you didn't need that much power (ie only several KW) you may be able to advertise as wanting an emergency generator with a failed engine.  A bunch were built for Y2K and uneducated homeowners ran them out of oil....

Good luck.
--Rick
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D._Frederick

Woody,
It would be know problem to belt a generator to your diesel. The way it is done is to put a power take-off on the front of the engine and use Vee belts to the generator. You should get a generator that is close to the rpm of your diesel, either a 1800 or 3600rpm, then use pulleys to get this rpm. You should be able to run a 20-25 KW generator.

smwwoody

I all ready have a rockford style clutch pto on the motor with a ten B grove shive seven of these groves are being used to run the mill the hydraulic pump and the edger.  I know I can belt drive a generator real easy from this I was just wondering if I could generate AC with what I have laying around
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

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