marketing pallet pieces etc

[tcrofton]

I am a recently retired carpenter with 80 acres of WI hardwoods. Your site has given me the info to consider getting a mill and engaging in sustainable forestry on my and neighboring land. (I am still cleaning up from some conventional loggings we had done 15 years ago, and am considering specializing working with big loggers to prepare the site in advance and clean up afterward) I believe I have enough standing timber (by thinning and taking broken trees) to pay for a mill making RR ties, and building my sheds, etc from softwoods for next to nothing.. I intend to harvest the complete tree, and the firewood will clearly be a big seller here. The good boards will be air dried and sold when the market comes up again. I'm considering fabricating wood gates from hardwoods (steel is getting high). I'm also looking towards chipping the junk stuff for the emerging biofuels industry (we're hearing $60/ton for chips vs $100-150 for split wood per ton).
My question is "how do you market the pallet pieces?". I would take the effort to cut up small logs into ready-to-nail pallet parts. Is there a market for this or do I need to find individual buyers?

[beenthere]

tcrofton
Welcome to the forum.
Your project plans sound great, and ambitious. Should be a fun time for us to keep track of your progress.

Where is your 80?  Northern WI, or ??

Always like to hear from a fellow Wisconsinite.

[bandmiller2]

Tcrofton,glad to have you here,the best thing is to sell a finished product,gates yes ,toolhouses yes ,benches and furnature yes.Pallets is a tough row to hoe very little return for your wood and labor.I had a co. at the end of my street that rebuilt pallets he had a hard time finding the right dimension wood when he told me what he would pay I turned around and left no wonder, more money for fire wood.Your a carpenter just feelout the local market their almost always a nitch.Good luck Frank C.

[DanG]

Welcome to the Forum, Tcrofton.  It sounds as if your aim is to become unretired real soon. ;) :D

Any thoughts on what sort of mill you'll be looking for?  There sure are a lot of different types, brands, and sizes out there to choose from.

I agree with Bandmiller2 on the pallet lumber.  If you plan to go to that much trouble, why not just nail it together and make the whole pallet?  There's plenty of time to consider all that, however.  Just getting started on setting up a mill, cleaning up your woods, milling your wood and building your sheds, will keep you occupied for quite  a while.  You may find that you don't have time to mess around with the loggers or the pallet mills. ;)

I like the gate idea, if you have a bunch of white oak.  Like Frank said, finished products is where it's at! 8) 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

The competition in pallets just doesn't justify putting too much work into pallet pieces.  For the best types of sawing, you pull off the best lumber, and make the biggest piece of blocking you can make.  RR ties are a good product.

But, not all logs will make RR ties.  Some you will cut a lot further, and some butt logs, you'll be able to cut the whole log into lumber.  But, there is little use to keep cutting low grade boards.  Boards are lower in value than pallet cants.  Part of the art of sawing is to know when to stop.

I saw mainly 3½x6 for pallet cants.  The pallet company will then cut them to length, and resaw them on a gang saw.  They can do it for pennies, you can't. 

Low grade boards I cut into 1x4 or 1x6.  Random width boards are hard to sell as pallet stock.

[tcrofton]

Thanks for the input
I've been a carpenter for 35 years and know a bit of problem solving and making things from scratch. I have a small cabinet shop and can use the small logs for kitchen doors, etc.
I'm looking to get a stationary electric mill (Cooks or Baker) and add my own hydraulics from used farm equipment. I have a flat spot (the only one in 130 acres) with a transformer on it, and figure a mill that I can pay off quickly will be better to add to, than one with the bells and whistles. I'd like to eventually build all of the sheds (locust poles for the verts, aspen and pine for the purlins ans girders and siding.)
I'm 55, so have a few years left to get this up and running. We have a small pine plantation and several aspen groves mixed in with our hardwoods. The original logging we had done took the old growth white and red oak from 1/3 of the land, but the winds of the last few years have been bringing down the mid sized stuff like crazy. I want to clean everything up and get my trail network completed (several miles already) to use for hunting, skiing and horseback riding.

The bio-mass to electricity business is going to grow quickly around here. A wood chipper that self feeds can really make the chips ($16k new for tractor pto, 12" feed). We just had a large coal and bio-mass electrical plant denied a permit because of the coal. The future is bright for wood chips to power. I think a planned sustainable logging approach starts with trails and ends with a firewood /chip cleanup that doubles the revenue. The labor is tremendous, and that's the economic development these rural areas need.
I am trying to work with the large power companies, state university types, state government types, and environmentalists to develop local, decentralized power plants that create local markets for wood chips (and other bio-mass). I ran for the State legislature this year, and lost. If I had won, I was planning on working on the inside to get grants out to folks to do this. Now I'm going to use my own land to showcase the idea.
Thanks again for the site and the feedback. I have the air tools to bang together pallets. As I have read, the auto industry uses 40% of the pallets in the US, and I guess that means we won't need too many of them for a while.

[Kansas]

Don't completely discount the pallet end of things. We cut quite a bit of pallet lumber, both for various skids and crates that we build, and for customers that build pallets with the lumber-both pallet manufacturers and end users building their own pallets. The key for a smaller mill operator is to cut what the big companies wont cut. Unusual length, width, or thickness. Don't be afraid to price it where you can make money. The worst they can do is say no. What I have found is that if you can provide fast and timely service giving them exactly what they want, even if you are the "last resort" that they call, they will pay up. So many mills get into a rut of only being able to cut certain sizes that it leaves a fair amount of business left that they cannot provide. Many mills also seem to have to get the order, then go find the logs.  You can't compete with them on price-it isnt worth trying. Dunnage pieces are the same thing, as well as trailer decking and blocking for any variety of customers. Speed of filling the order, versatility, and quality can trump price plenty of times to let you make money.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been down the wood-to-energy thing several times before.  I even helped do the resource analysis and helped site and do procurement work for one in the early '80s.

With oil under $50/barrel, they are very hard to make competitive unless you have a secondary steam user.  Even then, the economics get real hard, especially when you are looking at the reality of doing things vs the theory of doing things.

To keep fuel prices reasonable, they went with a chip/sawdust mixture.  Rule-of-thumb is 10,000 tons/Megawatt.  The plant I worked on was about 21 Meg.

Good luck with it.

[thecfarm]

Probaly firewood will be the easiest and best seller.  ;D Hard to sell lumber to some people.They always want a different length, width kind or something you don't have at that moment. But saying that some are doing fine doing the above,some not so fine. Just go into all this with both eyes wide open and don't believe everything you read in the sales brochures or at the web sites. Ask here and we will help you. Hard to clean up the woods and make a living at the same time too.Be prepared for ALOT of work.

[tcrofton]

Ron, thanks for the energy numbers.
I am trying to develop a bio-mass to electricity plan that does supply waste heat to local businesses. Process and space heat created as a by product in a small industrial park could be used by various different businesses, including greenhouses to grow local food. The waste heat would also be used to dry the chips before firing.
The coming of the new high energy prices (as opposed  to this temporary drop due to the depression we are entering) will make this a no-brainer, in theory. The question is how to develop it at the right scale, so that it produces better than break even, and doesn't pollute (particulate clean up is expensive and requires a critical size). Keeping the transportation costs down for this new fuel is part of the economic model. Decentralized plants (based on a standardized design) will spring up all over the place if we put the effort in now. The coal and bio-mass plant recently denied a permit was 1.3 billion dollars. Think how many little ones that would make.
The economic development plan I support has us addressing our energy problems with local solutions. We are in the driftless area of SW WI, where the melt waters of the glaciers ripped a network of valleys. A bunch of our hills are very steep, but mine are mostly drivable if simple traversing trails are made. Conventional loggers drive skidders up and down, making many extra paths and busting up a lot of saplings. Their money comes from the good logs, not stewardship. I'm trying to develop a model that will allow regular harvesting and using the whole tree. Permanent, well thought out, and landscaped trails (used for other activities also) allow access to areas on a regular basis and I believe there is need for providing this service.
Thanks again for everyones comments. They'll add up to something big someday.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And welcome to the forum Tcrofton You Have come to the right place Mate there are plenty of strait shooters here to help you out   ;) ;D 8) and another Chippy to boot ive been out of fulltime building for 7 years now myself with 7 years in the game with Dad  ;) ;D

I agree with the comments been posted sofar with reguards to the pallet market if you are going to get the most return for your time and effort you should look at adding as much value to whats going out the gate Like Frank ,Dang and Ron stated cabins ,sheds and gazibos(kits maybe) Ties ,Garden ties,pallet cants or Finished pallets as I think trying to sell finnished pallet stock in small volumes would be a hard task as Buyers in this part of the market try to make you a price taker not a price maker  ;)
Now with that said if you can find a buyer in your local area Eg. Brick/paver maker ,steel works/dealer,heavy haulage/transport packing firms  or any heavy industry that has a need for a non standard pallet eg 4+stringer large or custom pallets ,blocking.wedges. that is the area that i find a steady demand for this lower grade product Who are willing to pay a resonable price for a good product Dont worry about not supplying everything they need as most are willing to take what they can get I know of a brick plant 25 miles away that buys 4000+ 4 stringer Pine pallets a week at $23.50 ea and most of there supplyes come form 200 miles away
they also have 2 local supplyers that send them between 120 and 400 pallets per week I also send them a load every now and then ;) ;D They prefer local contractors as there quality is a hell of alot better than the larger supplyer and the freight is lower ;)

On the Flip side of the coin You could do what my Dad dose and focus on the High end of the market And build gazibos rustic furniture and the such Like he says to me  : you take 50 ton of logs and make a living for the month out of it and I can take that same 50 ton and make a living out of it for the year  ;) :D :D ;D and its true It just depends how far you want to take the finnished product  ;) ;D

With pricing work out what you need to make out of it to make a living and wether or not you want toget a stumpage return on your trees as this can make a differance
to what you need as a Final Price as I know farmers who make a decent living as they dont count the value of their trees in the final selling price  ;)
Good Luck Mate
Reguards Chris McMahon

[Ron Wenrich]

Most of the boilers that I have seen use fluidized bed burners.  The material is dropped in from the top and is dry before it hits the bottom.  There are no chip dryers, and they use mill and whole tree chips.

There are a couple of problems you have with several small generators.  One is having the material unloaded.  With a central plant, you have a platform that dumps the entire trailer.  With smaller plants, you would need one of them at each plant.

Stand alone generators are OK if you are going to provide both heat and electricity for an industrial park.  But, what happens when you need to do maintenance?  Will you be using the grid for a backup?  And each generator must have access to some sort of water source.

I remember getting information a number of years ago on a standalone project that used a jet engine principal to make electricity from biomass.  It was designed for industrial parks and was pretty fuel stingy.  The cost was more than I could handle, and the electric companies weren't interested in buying any at the time.

With wind energy coming into being as politically correct, I think the economics gets to be even worse.  Pellet mills are paying $50/ton for sawdust in my area.  That would be hard to beat just to burn for electricity.  The concept is good, but the economics can really be a drag.

[backwoods sawyer]

 If you plan to sell gates be sure to carry the hardware to mount them. The light duty stuff at the hardware store is just to light. I set of gate post set in the ground with the gate hung correctly with heavy duty hardware will bring top dollar.

I helped set up a Coe-gen plant at a big mill and even with all the grant money it was brake even on a good month. Fuel costs have to be high to warrant the cost of the plant and they are not cheap to operate even with an onsite fuel supply.

I do like your land management plan and have seen it implemented with grate success when not cross-fenced in a manor that creates a maze of gates to maintain. A good management plan will harvest trees at all stages of growth and keep a diverse age of trees as well as mix of species in the management area. Be sure to not over manage your land as to large of a portion of the trees in any age or species group will require more resources to get them back in balance.

[bandmiller2]

Tcrofton,generating elect. with steam is old technology ,problem its not practical in a smallish operation,it really requires someone responsible to watch it.Very possibly wood gassification running a conventional engine genset would work.Their are controls that will switch fuels and keep the generator running,say if the wood gas runs low it will blend in propane or street gas.I don't mean to be a wet blanket but wood waste is becoming a valuable by product you may be better selling it and let the big guys worry about burning it. Frank C.

[tcrofton]

Thanks to all for the info.
I am trying to put this all together and talk to the power companies interested in new capacity. Last year I spoke with the brains behind the 300kw fluidized bed 20% biomass, 80% coal plant that was recently scrapped for too much coal.
He has spent several years working out the details and has samples of every kind of bio-mass available in the mid west, and knows their btu per pound number.
I proposed the smaller decentralized version to him. He figured 30kw was the smallest you could put all the pollution controls on economically. I am going to do the math and see how big an area that covers on the input side and output side. Your basics facts are very helpful.
I have read about a process called pyrolizing (sp ???) that may be the gasifacation mentioned above. The byproduct is carbon in the form of charcoal that gets spread as a soil amendment (relatively inert) and actually is a carbon sink (removes carbon from the air through the growing/fuel cycle.)
On a home brew scale I have been dreaming of a later phase of my new operation that includes a small wood chip fired steam boiler , feeding a generator for electric and then heating a kiln for wood drying, making my electric mill operation a net energy producer for the grid. I know this is probably nuts but isn't that the fun part?

[dangerous dan]

  Hey,all. I,m writing from my warm cabin just west of Madison. I,ve had my LT40HD42super for 3 payments short of payoff date. My question is marketing. I believe in the value added theory but am having a hard time making $$. I specialize in free logs, mostly urban trees . I,ve made and installed flooring and make rustic furniture out of my lumber. A solar kiln is in the plans, when the funds allow. I also build handcrafted log and timber structures. Anyone want to share some marketing ideas ? I,m desperately looking for ways to earn a living with my mill, as the economy goes you know where. Thanks, dagerous dan.

[OneWithWood]

Welcome to the forum, Dangerous Dan.  8)

[Cedarman]

Welcome Dangerous Dan.
You must be constantly marketing.  First, figure out all the things that you know you can do.  Make a written list.  Visit every business in 10 or 20 miles.   Stay away from Monday mornings and Friday afternoons.  Talk to the owner about what wood products they might use.  Specialty pallets, dunnage, platforms, paneling, whatever else you might have.  Wear something unusual so that they will remember you.  Have some nice business cards.  Have something printed on both sides.  Put something on the card that people want to keep.  I have my cedar log scale.  Listen more than you talk.  Get some books on marketing, read, read, read.  Let everyone you meet know what you do.  Have a sign on your vehicle.    If you have an answering machine, have your cell phone number on there.  Say it slow, say it twice.  If you call and get an answering machine, leave your number very early in the message and again at the end.  Get your family and friends to tell others about what you do.  If you do get a referral, be sure to give them a gift.  This should get you started.

[DanG]

That's a whack of good tips from Cedarman! 8) 8)

One of the best things you can do for yourself is to stick with this Forum.  There are literally reams of good ideas for making money with your mill, and with other things.  Also, there are several Forumites in your area, in it sure doesn't hurt to have contact with them.

Don't be afraid to step outside your chosen field if it means the difference between working and sitting.  Think of things that people really need, rather than things they just want in these tough times.  One thought is, if you've been building structures, you'd probably make a pretty good handyman in a pinch.  You could advertise as such and probably pick up some little repair jobs.  Even a $50 job is better than nothing. ;)

[bandmiller2]

D Dan,make yourself a cute toolhouse put it out front with a for sale sign.Make it a size you can transport on a trailer.Donate one to a local civic group with your name and number "custom toolhouses".Sell envourmentally safe boat piers[untreated wood].
Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Tcrofton,its practical for you to mess around with steam to generate electricity,selling it may be anouther story.For years I had a big old high pressure boiler[over15 lb.] I used to run a circular sawmill.An 8 1/2 x 11" ajax steam engine mounted on an AB Farquar portable boiler run at 80lb.Most of the traction engine and portable boilers are now pushing 100years old be very leary of them.If I were doing it again I would  get a modern used large boiler build a masonry setting with a dutch oven firebox.Find a large steam  engine coupled to a slow turning generator.Reason for large,a cute small setup requires constant feeding and regulation.A large boiler and engine combo can just loaf along on slow boil nothing critical happening fast.Also its easier and cheaper to find and buy the big stuff.Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Tcrofton,forgot to mention,I don't know the regulations in your state if your lucky they have an aggy clause for high pressure biolers like for cooking swill steaming soil est.High pressure sterm is as dangerous as an exwife with a loaded shotgun.Again the reason for a large boiler and engine you don't need real high pressure to get power,leaves you some leeway with a sound boiler.A dutch oven will burn almost anything cleanly.frank C.

[dangerous dan]

hey this is dangerous dan,
thanks for the good ideas. as soon as i get the snow out of my milling area i'll mill up some lumber and find a hoe for it.  8)

[tcrofton]

Frank, thanks for the info on steam.
I'm aware of the danger, at steam shows some folks get killed now and then.
To make my dream deal work we'd need an automatic feeder for chips etc. I like the idea of a big, slow machine.

This forum rocks. 8)

tom