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Southern Yellow Pine ?

Started by woodhick, December 04, 2008, 01:41:48 AM

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Tom

Nah, I got better sense than that.   I know I couldn'lt guess one when I've not even seen all the yellow pines.

Well, what the heck, maybe it'll be fun to make a stab at it. using some of my eyeball memories.  All I have to go on.  :)
left-right
The first could pass for LongLeaf vertical grain.

The second I would guess as flat-sawed Loblolly or plantation grown slash.  The color and thickness of the winter wood makes me think there might be some reaction wood envolved. The color could also be indicative of pond pine.

The third looks like slash from the end but it's hard to tell from the wide surface, the wide grain on the right side of the board sure indicated that it jumped in those 4 years represented. I'd say it might be loblolly too.

The stripe of heart and the even grain of the fourth board indicates a possibility of longleaf, but slash will do that too.  

The fifth one over shows a very flat-sawn piece with oval images indicative of a board sawn from a marbled surface.  I'd say it was grown under a canopy. It's grain is tight, but I can't see it from the end.  It could be Loblolly, based on the light color, though it probably is one I've not seen much of , like shortleaf maybe.

The Next one over has very wide grain on the right but it is like there was a limb there or maybe a lump on the side of the tree or a bend in the log.  I'd guess it to be open-grown, whatever it is.

The one on the far right, I haven't a clue.  It's almost white. All I'd guess is that it was wet footed.

Dodgy Loner

You did very well, Tom! 8)

From right to left, they are:

Longleaf pine (P. palustris)
Slash pine (P. elliottii)
Loblolly pine (P. taeda)
Pitch pine (P. rigida)
Shortleaf pine (P. echinata)
Virginia pine (P. virginiana)
Lodgepole pine (P. contorta)

The virginia pine is curious to me, in it's similarity to the southern yellow pines.  I would have definitely called it a southern yellow pine, not a western yellow pine, just by looking at the wood.  The lodgepole pine has much wider earlywood and much narrower latewood rings than the SYPs, giving it a much whiter appearance.  Close inspection reveals very little difference between the actual color of the latewood and earlywood bands between SYP and WYP, but the greater percentage of latewood in SYP is what gives it the yellow appearance.  Research from some of my esteemed colleagues at UGA has shown that the width of the latewood bands has more to do with the timing of the rainfall received than with the growth rate of the trees.  Areas that receive more rainfall in late summer, when the trees are producing latewood, will have wider latewood bands than areas that receive more rainfall in the spring, when the earlywood is being produced. 

You can see in the photos of the endgrain that the first three specimens all have a decent growth rate and very wide latewood bands, indicating that they were grown in a climate with lots of summer rainfall.  Southeast Georgia is one such region (which is where the samples came from).  Wood from this region is superir to wood from northeast Georgia, which tends to receive the bulk of its rainfall in the spring.  The next three species all have a greater percentage of earlywood, which makes sense, since all of the samples were taken from northeast Georgia.  The last sample has very narrow rings and the latewood bands are the narrowest of any sample.  I'm not familiar with rainfall patterns where this tree grew (heck, I don't even know where this tree grew), but I suspect that it's likely that it gets very little in late summer.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Tom, I think you'll agree with me on this. It's a lot easier to tell them apart when they are in front of you, you possibly hand selected the samples from known sources and you are the one doing the testing.  :D :D :D :D :D :D

Heck, let me put up some spruces. I could show you all kinds of variability. I can show you tight rings you can barely distinguish and they could fall into all 3 eastern spruces. Then I could make it easier and show typical samples, then you would still find it difficult to separate red spruce from black. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

nsmike

Tom, I understand that your defensive about the term SYP when it comes to lumber and keeping your list to the four major species Longleaf, Shortleaf, Slash and Loblolly. In the pulp market the list is eight and adds Pitch, Pond, Spruce and Table Mountain. If you ask a Dendrologist he'll add in a whole bunch of species from Caribbean Islands and Mexico. I guess we all have to keep in mind context. Just to add fuel to the fire Loblolly is more closely related to three of the minor species, Pitch, Pond, and Table Moutain pine than it is to the other three major SYP species, a case can be made for dropping Loblolly from the SYP lumber designation but I won't get into that. ;D
Mike  

SwampDonkey

Not much variability is earlywood width, so it stands to reason that they could make that conclusion. It's a pretty good hypothesis going into the experiment. ;)  That's been researched for a long time. Wet spring, turning dry for a stretch then later in summer heavy rainfall will induce lamas growth as well. I think some of those pines, a couple species at least show this fairly common.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

beenthere

Mike
Make your case. I'd like to hear it.

And could you fill in some on your bio?  please
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

If you look at volumetric shrinkage of the 4, they are pretty much the same. Specific gravity (relative density), a bit wider margin between them. But, density in grading is different then relative density obviously.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: nsmike on January 12, 2009, 04:02:45 PM
If you ask a Dendrologist he'll add in a whole bunch of species from Caribbean Islands and Mexico.

You mean like P. caribea? ;D  I have never seen Carribean pine in person, but my dad has pictures from a sawmill operation in Honduras where they were sawing some pretty nice logs.  It's a close relative of slash pine, and I've read about some work with hybrids between the two.


Don't trip while this blade is running! ;D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Nice pictures Dodgy, that's your dad I assume. He sure takes a lot of cool pictures.  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

nsmike

beenthere, I have family ties to the lumber industry in the Carolinas my Sisters boyfriend (more like commonlaw BIL) runs a thinning crew for a major forestry company in NC and an Uncle that was involved in the industry in SC. Most of the arguments for excluding Pond, Pitch and Table Mountian pine applys equally to Loblolly unless it comes from carefully managed plantations.  Most of the complaints I hear are from my Uncle and making density he prefers Shortleaf.
Dodgy yep that's what I was thinking along with Cuban and Honduran.
Mike

fishpharmer



SYP maybe alot like Angus Beef in alot of resteraunts.


Who can tell the difference by taste?

Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
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WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
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The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

SwampDonkey

I can't even tell the difference between beef and bison. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

The key to strength is the % latewood ( the dark band).  The amount of latewood is directly proportional to the amount of summer rainfall received.  Loblolly produces fine lumber if the trees have age and grow in a vigorous stand.  However, the problem with quality today is that the rotation age of commercially managed stands of loblolly (slash too, for that matter) has steadily decreased because of economic factors.  The average rotation age of commercially grown SYP plantations by Industry (they are the ones that produce the lions share of the lumber sold into the market) is now less than 30 years, with 26 being a good average.  That is the biggest problem, not the inherent nature of the 4 SYP commercial species.

You do not see the problem as much in slash, longleaf, and shortleaf since they are not usually grown in plantations to the extent that loblolly is (loblolly simply grows faster than the other three).  Plus, shortleaf and longleaf have a hard time producing sawtimber sized trees in 26 years.  As to size loblolly and slash on a good site can produce sawlog sized trees in that amount of time if the stand density is manipulated to maximize diameter growth.  That is what the foresters of the large companies do, focus on fast diameter growth.  That is the only way to grow trees commercially on a large scale and stay in business when growing SYP.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

There is another way, if the industry would pursue it

There are a lot of farms and land owners who would be tree farmers again if the mills weren't so cut-throat.  The landowners can take a beating with price and they also empathise and sympathise with the loggers when quotas are so one-way that they have to sleep in their trucks at the gate to sell their one load a day.

I know it's deeper than the mills.  They are taking a beating too.  There is a lot of fiber coming into the states from outside the borders, competing with subsidized wood.

I'm wondering if tree farming isn't maybe becoming a thing of the past.

Do they grow material for studs and framing in India? :D

WDH

Tom, you are right.  I am concerned about the ability of the private tree farmer to own land and grow trees.  The Industry is cutthroat and the competition from imports is fierce. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Well if you could get land owners all to participate and hold foreign imports to the standards of the domestic business then it might be a step toward a solution. Heck I've seen it here many times. A mill will cry for wood. There are a number of crown leases that have volumes of wood that can not be processed by the mill with that lease. For instance a softwood stud mill isn't going to be producing paper and vise versa. Although, some companies are fully integrated and they have sub-licensees as well. But, when one mill is crying for wood, the other licenses should be supplying some volume, not exporting it. My point is, while this is going on proivate wood is going state wide, because of price and no playing around with turning on and off the deliveries. Heck we have contracts with these mills, honor the darn contracts or the land owner is going to say to hell with it. It all boils down to this, as soon as they make a deal with another lease holder for volume, they shut the tap off from private deliveries. Then when their supply runs short, they expect all the private volume to come through the gate at year end to fulfill the contract. Then blame the private sector for not supplying wood at their whim. Just makes you want to grab someone by the throat sometimes.  :-X >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

For the small landowner, timing is critical.  The big Industrial guys cut all the time, regardless of the market, while the small private guy has to be more discerning in when to harvest.  I recently sold a first thinning (planted loblolly pine) that will be harvested this year, but it is a silviculturally driven sale.  I have some stands that are in their early 20's that need second thinning, but I am delaying that harvest because the prices are so low.  The growth on those stands has slowed (needs thinning), but the growth is on trees of sawlog size, so it will not take much of a price improvement at all to get me back even or ahead.

On the first thinning, those stands (ages 12 and 13) are growing lower value pulpwood, so the sooner that I can thin and get the new growth in the form of chip-n-saw (small sawlogs), the better I will be from a financial standpoint.  As a trees moves from pulpwood size to small sawlog size, the price/value for that tree doubles.

Anyway, you have to be smart when you sell. 

There will a Thinning WDH thread in the near future.  Tom has gone ahead and started something.........you have to keep up with the Toms :D.

Also, don't worry, these are true Southern Yellow Pines ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Pitcaver101

Does short leaf pine from central Indiana have any marketable value. I can not find a buyer here locally and am looking for log buyers in surrounding states that might have an interest,it is about 60,000 bdft
Thank you
Against the grain

bucknwfl

Quote from: DanG on January 11, 2009, 11:49:02 PM
Yeah, spruce pine is strange all right. To clarify just a bit, the logs I sawed all came from one customer.  They obviously weren't open grown trees as the logs were long, straight and clear, but the ring spacing was wide like an open grown loblolly.  They were loaded with free water.  The boards were heavy, but dried real fast.  They had been down for a while, as the bark was beginning to slip.  I asked him if they'd been laying in water but he said they had been stacked high and dry.  I did note that the lumber lay really flat with very little movement during sawing or drying.  It was pleasant sawing, except that those 20 ft 1x10s
were pretty heavy for an old fart like me.
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I just cut some spruce for paneling in one of my bathrooms.  It is quite different for sure. Typically i dont care for the big growth rings but spruce pine is quite beautiful     As far as sand pine goes, it may be the least quality of all the pines in our area. If you can find some old stuff that is of decent size it can make some nice knotty pine panels but younhave to cut twice as much as you need.  It barely makes good pulp.  Lol


Thanks
Buck

If it was easy everybody would be doing it

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