TSI project

[VT_Forestry]

I'm getting ready to start work on a TSI project when I get home for Christmas break.  The landowner has approximately 12 acres that he wants small understory/low value trees removed on.  His primary objective is to release the bigger oaks and other mast producing species to help benefit his deer population (he has a total of close to 40 acres or so).  He also wants a clearcut area anywhere from 0.5-1 acre to improve wildlife habitat.  Any of the cut trees that are decent will be hauled to a central location for firewood.  The remainder of the trees will be hauled to the clearcut area and piled up for burning at a later date.  I'm charging $40/hr for two people.  We have 2 saws and a tractor to pull them all with.  Any suggestions or advice on a project like this would be much appreciated.  I'll try and get some pictures up once we get started, I know everybody loves pictures haha  :D 

[SwampDonkey]

One question, are the bigger oaks dominants? Or are they intermediate and co-dominant? I am assuming they are younger intermediate or co-dominant trees your releasing, and not suppressed. Or you are looking to increase crown size of dominant canopy trees. I just wasn't clear.

It's hard to explain something of this nature online. There is a bit of an art to it as well as math.

Probably the easiest method would be to remove the junk while spacing the good ones so at least 3 sides of the crowns are not touching neighboring trees, while maintaining a minimum crown closure and basal area. Wouldn't it be great if all the great looking trees where evenly spaced for you and all you had to do was remove the culls?  :D

[VT_Forestry]

Wouldn't it be great if all the great looking trees where evenly spaced for you and all you had to do was remove the culls?  :D

Haha yeah that would be great!  I guess I wasn't too clear in my original post, but you've hit the nail on the head.  There are co-dominant oaks that we plan to release and dominant oaks that we will space out to open up their canopies.  When I went and looked at this piece of property, it's been cutover probably 40-50 years ago, so the larger trees really aren't all that big anyway.  The smaller trees are pretty poor form, so what we're planning on taking out has little to no value to it other than for firewood.  It'll be a fun job, lots of work, but something to keep me occupied and make a little money along the way

[Reddog]

We also leave rows of downed junk trees for wind breaks. Deer like to use them for cover.

[Kodiakmac]

Just read your comment "He also wants a clearcut area anywhere from 0.5-1 acre to improve wildlife habitat."

I was reading an article about creating deer habitat in a hunting magazine or the QDMA quarterly (can't remember which).  In any event, it said that the best way to encourage a quick growth of deer habitat was to make a vertical cut through the small stuff about 24 - 30 inches off the ground and then to make a horizontal cut through one side to the vertical cut.  Then, simply bend the tree top over to the ground and leave it there.

This creates instant cover and, since the trunk is not cut completely through, this encourages sprouting...which provides browse, secondary growth and more cover.

[SwampDonkey]

We also leave rows of downed junk trees for wind breaks. Deer like to use them for cover.

The porkies like them brush piles too, especially handy to pole sized wood where they can strip the bark off the upper limbs and needles off in winter.  ;D

[OneWithWood]

If you can leave some midstory trees to provide shade on the south side of you oaks you can minimize epicormic branching.  Sometimes it pays to leave a junk tree just for this shading effect, especially for white oaks.

[woodtroll]

I am not much for partial cutting of trees for dear browse. They take up a lot more room as a bent over weed then a standing one.
After a TSI many times you get a flush of new growth anyway. Or don't herbicide your stumps.

[Maineloggerkid]

I did a TSI / land clearing job early this summer, and let me tell you- the work I did was worth more than 40/hr. I had to cut, move, and chip the small wood. Then remove all big trees off the lot.

[Kodiakmac]

Yup.  You wouldn't get me, a tractor (let alone my skidder) and another guy for anywhere near $40 per hour.

I'm going to find that habitat article and try to convince every prospective contract I have that this is the way to go . Log out the worthwhile stuff, leave some shade, and bend over the pecker-poles for Mr. Bucky.  I'm out of here.

[VT_Forestry]

Yup.  You wouldn't get me, a tractor (let alone my skidder) and another guy for anywhere near $40 per hour.

Yeah, I know it's pretty low price, but the guy is a mutual friend and this is the first time we have done anything like this, so he offered to be a guinea pig of sorts.  As soon as we finish I'm sure the price will increase substantially haha

[SwampDonkey]

I've been down your neck of the woods a few times VT_Forestry. A couple of friends of mine worked in your college. 

[VT_Forestry]

It's a pretty part of the country and a fine place to be raised up, that's for sure.  I'm assuming your friends were professors?

[SwampDonkey]

No. One worked in the vet clinic and the other was working like an extension forester concerning SPB mostly and some HWA. He's a bug man. ;)

[VT_Forestry]

No. One worked in the vet clinic and the other was working like an extension forester concerning SPB mostly and some HWA. He's a bug man. ;)

Ahh, gotcha.  I don't know about those bug guys sometimes haha :D

[Woodhog]

I do work similar to this quite a lot now that the commercial stuff has run its course, where it is a non commercial operation a lot of things are different...

I always look for good cavity trees and standing rot trees for woodpeckers etc and leave them, maybe this stuff is too young..??

I dont clean everything up unless they want to walk thru it all without tripping....on some of the smaller jobs, it gets quite sterile if you pick up everything and dont leave stuff to rot up...

When I cut any maple etc. it is only a year or so before there is all kinds of suckers coming out of the stump for deer, plus they feed all winter on the buds from cut branches.

Here if you thin like the commercial woodlots, I find they cut too much and get a lot of blowdowns, also it gets too dry in the summer.

I like the tiny clearcuts, very small as they start the cycle for that type of land all over again and brings in some new critters...

Brush piles are good for small animals to hang out in...

I also try to pick out an area to let the ultimate TSI operator do the work, if the owners agree and just leave it alone.

I also think your price is too low, it cuts fast, but picking up the mess takes much longer and you have to reflect that in your fees....

The two men should be worth 20.00 per hour each with the saw at least and the machine more.....

It is good work , much better than logging for nothing....and the people you work for are usually a different bunch compared to the usual woods rowdies...

They value their land and after a few jobs you will also get a different feel for things..

I like working for them and actually feel I am doing something good.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to Woodhog's comments above.

Leave some den, snag, and cavity trees for wildlife, scatter and lop the slash over the area to within 2-4 feet of the ground, rather than total removal. This will leave fines for soil improvement and also protect some of the new regeneration. Be sure that the brush piles left are not compressed and are suitable for wildlife entry. Start with the larger slash pieces on the bottom.

Yes, the price is too low for two people with chain saws, tractor, fuel etc. Since it is the first job it will be a "learning experience". Do a good job though and use it as a "show piece" for future work. 

[VT_Forestry]

Ron-

That's the plan...I knew coming in that this would be a low number, but I want to be able to showcase this job in the future.  Thanks to everyone for all the great advice, you guys have a lot to share and I think it's great.  I'll be sure to keep everyone posted on how it turns out and by all means, keep the advice flowing 

[moonhill]

Question, TSI=tree stand improvement?  That is my first guess, am I correct?  Thanks.

Tim

[VT_Forestry]

Timber Stand Improvement, but yes, you're right

[customsawyer]

I do some work like this with my brown tree cutter behind my tractor. It will take down up to a 8" tree if you back into it right and it leaves some stuff bent over for the critters. It seems to work better for wildlife than the mulcher heads on the skidsteers. IMO. But like the others you aren't going to get me and my tractor out there for double what you are charging.

[Ed_K]

 $30 an hr for cutting or girdling $20 hr for any helpers needed to stack brush. If the landowner wants it clean,its $2500. to $3500. per ac.
I pay $7. cord for firewood and if there's any sawlogs we talk about it.
Go for it, the works hard but everytime you see what you did,will be satisfying. I'd like to find one customer who would pay to prune a few acres for future timber.

[moonhill]

So..... when does a tree become a timber?  It could go to chips.  Then it would be CSI?

Tim

[Kodiakmac]

For what it's worth, the average Government per hour rental rate in Canada (when our Loonie was on par with your dollar) for a small skidder like a C4 TF, 225 TJ or 440 JD is about $45.00 per hour...and that's not counting the operator!

My skidder isn't going to leave the yard unless I'm bringing that in.  Think about it:  4WD backhoes are going to cost you $55 to $75 per hour and a construction labourer is going to put $12 to $15 in his pocket...don't know why your skidder and men are worth less???

[Norm]

It all depends on where your at to what you can charge. Around here jobs are scarce and folks will compete for the ones that are available. An example is firewood prices. We are lucky to see $150 a full cord for firewood and if it's not oak you have trouble selling it at all.

What VT's charging would be the going rate around here. If you insist on more the next guy gets the job and you go hungry.